AI is too fast with technology.
I'm had an issue recently I want to pass by the community in hopes of getting any suggestions out of you to help prevent it in the future.
I began a game at the prince difficulty as I don't see giving the AI bonuses as a real method of increased difficulty. Just seems cheap to me.
Moving on, some 1000 turns later into the game I begin to notice that Montezuma has made his way to the Modern age. I'm still at pre-industrial two eras before him and the other 10 civs are just before me. Nothing that he's done justifies him acquiring so much tech yet there he is using artillery against city states and other civs archers.
I enjoy a long paced game so that i have time to enjoy all the units throughout the age, the ride is more fun then the destination in my mind. Yet when I took notice of this i felt rushed into applying extreme focus into tech to catch up to him. This method obviously took away from the enjoy of the game for me as it stopped being about me and 11 other civ and just about me and this one civ racing to the end of tech so that i can stand a chance against his army. This is not fun.
I ask the community to give me ideas either via modding or what not to make it so that the this doesn't happen in such an extreme way.
My only guess to what happened was that the civ was spamming research agreements with other civs. Is there a way i can turn this off.
If you are struggling to keep technologically you're realy going wrong somewhere.
-Using great scientist to gain free techs (rather than goldening aging, or building accademy (unless you are really early in game and have a spare tile) you can speed this up by manually setting scientish in your specialist buildings
-Sign reaserch agreements as often as you can.
-Science requires a large population across your civ. Easiest way to do this is still to spam cities (around 5+) plus puppet any capured cities which helps toward your science production. (going vertical with fewer cities is an option but harder on micromangaing food)
-Dont spread your techs out broadly. B-line to the important ones that aid growth and science.
-get public schools up asap. and build observatories where available.
-Theres a policy that gives 1 science per trade post tile. OVer a large civilisation this can really boost science. (especially if you use workers on automate as they go trade post crazy)
-try and get the free tech wonders, oxford, great libary and that "other one".
Thats pretty much it.
The game horribly cheats at times. I get to a point sometimes where the AI seems to have skipped a few era's and it's game over basically lol
I used to have the same problem: I thought the AI was cheating in order to tech as quickly as it does. However, prince level AI does not cheat.
You need to change how you're playing. I agree with everything foxdie recommended, but I would emphasize the importance of research agreements and population. I try to play with as few RA's as possible (lest I feel though I'm exploiting the AI) but when I began aggressively expanding my population at the beginning of the game, it got much easier to keep up with the AI.
It's difficult to explain exactly how to do this since every scenario is somewhat different, but if you keep experimenting with different approaches I'm certain you'll figure it out. Experimentation is part of what makes this game fun. To me, anyway.
Originally Posted by Devilize
A couple of things.
First, tell me a strategy game where the AI don't cheat on the higher difficulty levels. It's been the case with Civ 1-4 (in Civ 4, deity level, the AI would start with 2 settlers, 2 workers and 4 defensive units, and only pay 60 % upkeep costs on military), it's the case with most other strategy games as well. Check out the AI bonuses for Starcraft 2 for example. Coding a decent AI in a game like Civ 5 isn't easy.
Second, if you have made contact with the Civs you're playing against, you get a message when a research agreement is signed. So if you suspect the AI are tech leaders because of this, you would know. But I suspect the problem isn't this but...
Third, you don't play the game well. There is a mod you can use. It's called chieftain difficulty level.
I'm having fun optimizing a Science victory - how early can I go for the absurdity of it? The earliest I've gotten is 1995!
Originally Posted by 2kDuck
In addition, one of the policies in Patronage branch will give you some additional science: Scholasticism - "All city states which are Allies provide a science bonus of 33% of what they produce for themselves."
I’ve been experimenting with different approaches while learning the ins-and-outs of the game. The provided screenshots below shows where the science is coming from.
Example 1: 4 supersized cities rocketed to Alpha Centauri in 2006, food focus, seemed like I was always running broke (trading post, what’s that?): http://jsemler.net/games/civ5/screen...1-21-08-30.jpg
Example 2: 4 slightly smaller cities but is more economically robust (IMO), 5 city states allied to me giving me a science boost and bonus from excess happiness, rocketed to Alpha Centauri in 1995, much better gold income even with a reasonable sized fighting force (gold maintenance cost problem): http://jsemler.net/games/civ5/screen...1-17-24-46.jpg
In the second scenario, that extra city I gained (OLD SARAI) was because I needed a forward base to mount an attack to liberate one of the city-states that was capture by Alexandra (I wanted my cultural and science bonus back!) I was at war with him from very early on in the game.
Plus, I do a lot of resource trading with the other AIs to keep my population happy (and I hope foster better relations with them). I probably have the market cornered on Silk (I have 7 Silk plantations).
Prince level, huge Earth map, quick game pace.
The grand finale (1995 scenario, shows the rocket exhaust): http://jsemler.net/games/civ5/screen...1-12-44-65.jpg
I’ve played another iteration of that same scenario. Really got the science output going strong early in the game (went for public schools as soon as possible, and then onto research labs). I had a satellite view of the world in 1918 (229 turns) – it made my civ very happy when they can see all those world wonders! My civilization rocketed into space in the year 1962 (251 turns)!
I usually had four city-states allied to me once I got a strong economy going; more when I could afford it and have encountered them in the game. I took full advantage of specialists this time around putting them to work in production facilities and institution of higher learning for more science points (Secularism: 2+ science from every specialists) when it is economically feasible to do so (simple on-the-spot marginal cost/benefit determination).
I never produced any of my military hardware – the militaristic city-states do that for me and they give me good hardware for the times. I even took the opportunity to expand my empire by conquest to make the AIs squeal a little – sometime they will give away the farm and give me gobs of resources for a peace treaty.
The science output was strong so I had only 13 turns left to complete the last 4 technologies in the research tree.
For the social policies, I focus on the “Tradition”, “Patronage” and “Rationalism” branches. They seem to be an appropriate match for my strategy (start out with just four cities, co-opt the city-states and accelerate the science output).
I haven’t really pursued many, if any at all, research agreements with the AIs. I usually saved my gold to purchase favors with the city-states. They will ally with the nation that earned (or purchase) the most favors with them.
Here are the three cities I annexed or made into puppets (snapshot from the year 1918). The Ottoman Empire was devastated by the capture of Istanbul (Capital City, pop 22 IIRC) and Ankara (pop 6). Population count of the Ottoman Empire was reduced around 50%: http://jsemler.net/games/civ5/screen...1-24-50-84.jpg
Here‘s an area view of the state of my civilization in the year 1962 (same layout as before, which I think is optimal for this map) and a snapshot of the research bonus information: http://jsemler.net/games/civ5/screen...1-44-58-92.jpg
Here’s the rocket-to-space grand finale for the year 1962: http://jsemler.net/games/civ5/screen...8-10-32-97.jpg
Game settings: Prince level, huge Earth map, quick game pace (game is over at 330 turns, year 2050).
I really have to try this strategy on Pangaea type maps (I think the AI have some difficulty with this map). I am really enjoying this game!
Here’s a different strategy I used for a game played recently. I achieved a science victory in the year 1950 after 245 turns.
1) Gold is easier to come by playing Wu Zetian (Chinese). Paper Maker is the Chinese replacement for Library and it nets 3 GPT (Gold per turn). Love that 2 shot Crossbowman (Chu-Ko-Nu). It was a big help in my early war against Otto von Bismarck (Germany).
2) In this game I’ve made lots of friends. The enemy of my friend is also my enemy. I’ll denounce whoever denounces my friends. After a while, I eventually have a small circle of 5 “declared” friends. It eventually turned into an “us” versus “them” game. In this game, I was friends with Darius I (Persia), Harun al-Rashid (Arabia), Oda Nobunaga (Japan), Montezzuma (The Aztecs) and Hiawatha (The Iroquois). Due to peer pressure I was at war with or was not particularly friendly with Isabelle (Spain), Otto von Bismarck (Germany), Genghis Khan (Mongolia), Augustus Ceaser (Rome), Pachacuti (The Incas) and Ramesses II (Egypt). The “them” team were at a severe disadvantage because they didn’t get their act together on who their true friends were and to make matters worse, I was not on their team.
3) My social focus is “Liberty” (Rapid Expansion) and “Rationalism” (Accelerated Science). I’m a happy camper if I can earn a social policy every 20 turns. I averaged 20.4 turns per social policy in this game. Rule of thumb I use when adopting “Liberty” focus is to found 8 settlements by turn 100, don’t found any more cities after that. In this game I had 7 settlements by turn 100 and 9 settlements by turn 110. It can be a challenge founding new settlements with barbarians roaming about. Two of the cities founded weren’t by advice of the computer; it was a judgment call on my part to secure additional iron resources in the desert (cities don’t grow well in the desert) and to provide a way point to that far off settlement with the lucrative cotton fields. When you go for rapid growth, you don’t have time to research the early wonders like Pyramids and Great Wall. The “Liberty/Citizenship” policy grants a free worker and 25% increase in construction rate which helps to ameliorate this disadvantage. I did snatch the Pyramids much later when I found out that none of the other Civs bothered to go for it.
4) Focus is on Science Buildings 1st, Production Buildings 2nd, Culture Buildings 3rd and Food Enhancement Buildings last. Didn’t have to worry about gold income too much (9*3 = 27 GPT improvement with this Civ’s Paper Maker unique building as compared to other Civs with default Library building). I also have a tendency to ignore buildings that helps grow my population faster especially in the beginning - I didn’t want to suffer too much growing pains from excessive population growth (i.e., unhappiness).
5) Whenever a Great Engineer spawns, I add a Wonder to the beginning of my production queue for that building and then expend the Great Engineer to hurry up the production.
6) Whenever a Great Scientist spawns and an opportunity is right (I may wait a few turns), I expend the Great Scientist to research a relatively expensive new technology that I desire most at that moment.
7) I enter into research agreements every chance I get with my circle of loyal friends and with some of my future enemies (I tried to be Isabella’s friend but she declined. In the end she turned out to be a back stabber). In this game, I’ve completed 11 research agreements.
I obtained Satellite capability in the year 1882 after turn 211. At the time, I was beating up on Genghis Khan on the behest of my friends; we were all in this together and were openly looking forward to his early demise. I was busy conquering the juicy part of his empire while leaving the table scraps for my friends: http://jsemler.net/games/civ5/screen...1-49-22-25.jpg
Snap shot of the top half of my empire showing original founding city location: http://jsemler.net/games/civ5/screen...0-08-38-93.jpg
I settled a city in the desert in order to secure two iron resources. This created some tension between me and Harun al-Rashid of Arabia (I said I was sorry). It took a little more work to get him to be my friend as I didn’t pay as much attention to him in the early part of the game (Guarded status). Once we became loyal friends, I was there to help him with any financial problems he may be having. At one point in the game he actually begged for financial aid totaling 25 GPT! I grudgingly accepted knowing it was important for me to keep him as a loyal friend due to his proximity to my empire.
Snap shot of the bottom half of my empire showing original founding city location: http://jsemler.net/games/civ5/screen...0-05-34-90.jpg
My settlers had to travel very far to found the city Tianjin to get access to those lucrative cotton fields. Another city (Macau) was established in between break up the length of the path and to establish another trade route for additional gold income. My settlement proximity to Japan created some tension between me and Oda Nobunaga but I eventually won him over as a loyal friend (I said I was sorry):
Game over with a science victory in the year 1950 AD after 245 turns: http://jsemler.net/games/civ5/screen...1-41-32-87.jpg
It is interesting to note that Ramesses II (Eygpt) had only founded 4 cities. He have completed 4 of the 5 social branches needed to declare a culture victory and was apparently researching the last social policy to complete the fifth branch. It was a good thing I had lifted off in my space shuttle early: http://jsemler.net/games/civ5/screen...0-29-55-84.jpg
It felt bad to have denounced Ramesses II after our first meet up (last civilization I encountered in the game), he seemed friendly and all, but I turned on him to score brownie points with my loyal circle of friends. Snapshot of his empire, in the year 1950 (The city Elephantine had been conquered by Japan at some point): http://jsemler.net/games/civ5/screen...0-10-42-64.jpg
Game Settings: Wu Zetian of China, Huge Pangea Map, Prince Level Difficulty, Quick Game Pace (330 turn limit)
Last edited by madcat1968; 04-02-2011 at 07:38 AM.
Reason: broken links
excess happiness science ?
The in-game description to indicate the "happiness" science bonus was not well worded in my opinion. This science bonus is from the policy RATIONALISM/Sovereignty: "+15% Science while the empire is happy".
Originally Posted by the man of doom
As shown in this screen shot, http://jsemler.net/games/civ5/screen...1-17-24-46.jpg, I was making 1,144.96 science beakers from my cities. The "+171.74 science beakers from excess happiness" was computed from the formula 1,144.96 * 0.15.
havent gone down the right side of the rationalism tree in awhile
the AI can start with spearmen on prince difficulty, isn't prince supposed to me just the same for the Ai and human players? just happened in a game now, I met 2 Ai spearmen from 2 different civs before getting any of the first technologies.
upgrade ruin will upgrade their warriors into spears
Wonderful thread of advice. I came here looking for just this sort of info.
I see now my problem is I maintain an empire that is usually just too small to compete with the speed of the AI on prince (I rarely end a game with more than 5 cities; Im a slow start but by the end Im fairly competitive). I usually never have the edge by the end though, the game is a race by then.
I tried everything from micromanaging every facet of my empire to building up a lot of raport with city-states. AI was just kicking my ass on research. I think my empire is probably too small or maybe Im not playing small with the best empire (usually Darius or Hiawatha, and lately Kamehameha).
Four additional examples, standard pace
Four additional case studies, all games listed below are played on Hugh Pangaea map, prince difficulty and standard game pace (500 turns limit). I usually end with a science victory at 375 turns or less.
As Ottomans: An expansive empire example that translates into high incoming science beakers, wealth and high score. In this game, I tended to raze many of the conquered buildings. Railroads, what’s that? I only founded 6 original cities before I got my marching orders from Bismarck to declare war on other civilizations – I dutifully complied. Early on, I was great friends with Bismarck, Gandhi and Askia, but they swore me off mid-game when they realized they have created a monster. I got revenge on Bismarck for turning on me by erasing him from this world.
Achieved liftoff in 1951: http://jsemler.net/games/civ5/screen...4-49-53-42.jpg
As Babylonians: A mind-your-own-business empire example. Founded 8 cities and conquered 3 additional cities as punishment to Alexandra and Suleiman for daring to attack my empire. I laid down railroad tracks to improve the productivity of cities connected to my capital by 25%. This civilization pumps out Great Scientists at twice the rate so be sure to turn on science focus to earn Great Scientist points. I won the science victory because of the number of GSs that had spawned; the incoming science beaker rate is way inadequate. All GSs were expended to research complete topics in the tech tree.
Achieved liftoff in 1934: http://jsemler.net/games/civ5/screen...0-54-36-16.jpg
As Babylonians: Another mind-your-own-business empire example. Founded 6 cities and conquered none. I lay down railroad tracks to improve the productivity of cities connected to my capital by 25%. I didn’t allow the other AIs to roam within my borders. This seemed to shut off the endless stream of “your empire is too puny” comments from the AIs as I didn’t have an army or much of one for the later part of the game. This civilization pumps out Great Scientists at twice the rate so be sure to turn on science focus to earn Great Scientist points.
Achieved liftoff in 1942: http://jsemler.net/games/civ5/screen...3-28-43-31.jpg
As Babylonians: An expansive empire example that translates into high incoming science beakers, wealth and high score. I founded eight original cities plus one more late game to fill in a gap (Siam was trying to take it for the marble). I’ve conquered the rest razing very few buildings (only a couple IIRC). I lay down railroad tracks to improve the productivity of cities connected to my capital by 25%. I didn’t engage in much diplomacy in this game. This map is unusual as it is two giant blob connected via a one cell wide land bridge guarded by a barb camp! There were 6 starting empires each in the western and eastern hemisphere of the world. I eliminate all empires that resided on my side of the world. I also conquered quite a few city states that were allied to Siam. Some of those city-states are quite attractive to conquer with their high population count. I’ll annex some of the high pop count cities just so I can focus their science output by producing or purchasing the science oriented buildings. Unfortunately, I was unable to connect that great blob of expanse of the former Russian empire to my trade network before I lifted off into space (might have seen a significant boost in the GPT and in happiness). Workers are agonizing slow in completing their road/track work. Lesson for next time, bring along a team of workers that is dedicated to connecting former empires to my trade network and also try to complete The Great Pyramid wonder before any other empires put a claim on it. I’ve seen fewer GSs in this game as I was more focused on the war production effort. At one point in the game, I was conquering two Russian cities per turn. On my last turn on this planet, I knock down three cities at once to get Siam and Spain to capitulate completing my goal of conquering all the empires on my side of the globe before blasting off (they have been seriously beaten earlier in the game so they can’t put up much of a fight).
Achieved liftoff in 1941: http://jsemler.net/games/civ5/screen...0-48-28-44.jpg
Small empires generate terrible science beaker rates. If you go this route, at least insure you are getting the best possible GS points by turning on science focus or manually assigning citizen to the science producing buildings with specialist slots. Best to go with expansive empire as your conquest will pay off in improve science beaker rates, improved GPT and improved overall score and it will be a lot less boring to play. It’s fun to research the military technology side to keep up the momentum of conquering civilization. Don’t invest in food improvement buildings in the core of your empire unless you are flush in happiness. To speed up the conquest, wage battle on two or more fronts.
Last edited by madcat1968; 04-12-2011 at 02:26 PM.
Reason: Better writeup and spelling corrections
Also, upgrade ruins upgrade scouts to bowmans. They get to keep no-terrain-penalty-movement attribute. If playing as Babylonians, they should be stronger against melee attacks.
Last edited by madcat1968; 04-11-2011 at 08:44 PM.
I found that expansive empire route is the way to get high incoming science beaker rates (Adopt the "Liberty" policy tree). I conquer complete empires so I can take advantage of their trade routes and connect them to my empire. One of the "Liberty" policy is "Meritocracy", you get 0.5 happiness for each city connected to your trade route. For small empire you found yourself, you will have to rely on great scientists generation to research complete tech topics as the incoming science rate is way inadequate.
This revelation came about as I started playing on the standard game pace (500 turn limits).
I say the AI's can bring their A-game, makes the game funner in my opinon and makes you a better player.