Results 1 to 17 of 17

Thread: CIVILIZATIONS START BIAS - From the XML.

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    200

    CIVILIZATIONS START BIAS - From the XML.

    Howdie All

    Thought people might be interested in the START BIAS for each CIV.

    Essentially there are 5 classes of START BIAS.

    1. None
    2. Ocean
    3. River
    4. Terrain Type
    5. NOT Terrain Type

    The start bias is purely to enhance or allow for a given civs UA,UU or UB to flourish ASAP. I have placed next to each civ my reasoning for why the bias was chosen. Please note this is just my interpretation not something in the code.

    1. NO START BIAS
    Babylon (DLC)
    China
    France
    Germany
    Greece
    Japan
    Persia
    Rome
    2. OCEAN START BIAS (ie Coastal)
    England [UA "Sun Never Sets"].
    Ottoman [UA "Barbary Corsairs"].
    Polynesian (DLC) [UA "Wayfinding"].
    Spain (DLC) [UA "Seven Cities of Gold", UU "Conquistadors"].
    Denamrk (DLC) [UA "Viking Rage", UU "Beserker"]
    3. RIVER START BIAS
    America [UA "Manifest Destiny"].
    4. TERRAIN TYPE START BIAS
    TUNDRA - Russia [UA - "Siberian Riches"].
    DESERT - Arabia [UA - "Trade Caravans"].
    PLAINS - Mongol (DLC) [UA "Mongol Terror", UU "Khan", UU "Keshik"].
    GRASSLAND - India [UA "Population Growth"].
    FOREST - Iroquois [UA "The Great WArpath", UU "Mohawk Warrior", UB "Longhouse"].
    JUNGLE - Aztec [UU "Jaguar", UB "Floating Gardens"].
    HILLS - Inca (DLC) [UA "The Great Andean Road", UI "Terrace Farm"].
    5. NOT TERRAIN TYPE
    FOREST - Egypt [UU "War Chariot"].
    FOREST - Siam [?]
    JUNGLE - Egypt [UU "War Chariot"].
    TUNDRA - Songhai [UA "River Warlord"].

    Some of my reasoning may require a little more clarification.
    MONGOL/EGYPT - Essentially not impeding there ability for warfare with hampering terrain.
    AMERICA - Rivers mean more tiles worth buying early on in the game and alos genrerally less hills close by allowing for the sight bonus to take effect.
    SPAIN - Ocean access allows spain to start searching for water based NW and other continents (NW and Conquistador warfare) as early as possible.
    SONGHAI - Avoiding tundra means placing the Songhai more towards the centre of the world and therefore increasing their exposure to more civilizations/barbarians, ie more targets for pillaging.
    INDIA - Grassland leads to a large food output which allows India to push its population to the full heights its UA allows.
    SIAM - NOT SURE about this one. Maybe its to try and give them gold producing terrain for the UA ?
    RUSSIA/ARABIA - Increase the likelihood of having strategic resources, linked to their UA, near their capital.
    AZTEC - Allow for a haven for Jaguars and give the Aztecs Scientific potential (Jungle + Floating Gardens + Extra Culture), in addittion to their exiting Cultural and Martial expertise.

    OK hope this helps people a little.

    Apologies for typos, I will fix them up later.

    Let me know if you have any differing interpretations on the reasoning behind the bias'.

    PS These values come from the following Civ V files; please note that the values in question are right at the bottom of each of these files (the last entries).

    ORIGINAL CIVS
    C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\SteamApps\common\sid meier's civilization v\assets\Gameplay\XML\Civilizations\CIV5Civilizati ons.xml
    BABYLON
    C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\SteamApps\common\sid meier's civilization v\assets\DLC\DLC_Deluxe\Gameplay\XML\CIV5Civilizat ion_Babylon.xml
    MONGOL
    C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\SteamApps\common\sid meier's civilization v\assets\DLC\DLC_01\Gameplay\XML\CIV5Civilization_ Mongol.xml
    SPAIN and INCA
    C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\SteamApps\common\sid meier's civilization v\assets\DLC\DLC_02\Gameplay\XML\CIV5Civilization_ DLC_02.xml
    POLYNESIA
    C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\SteamApps\common\sid meier's civilization v\assets\DLC\DLC_03\Gameplay\XML\CIV5Civilization_ DLC_Polynesia.xml
    DENMARK
    C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\SteamApps\common\sid meier's civilization v\assets\DLC\DLC_04\Gameplay\XML\CIV5Civilization_ DLC_Denmark.xml
    Last edited by Gabriel Pyyrhic; 05-06-2011 at 07:57 AM. Reason: Added latest DLC Info

  2. #2
    Thank you ! I've learn a lot in your topic. Didn't know that Civ start bias existed.

  3. #3
    So these biases are already set up the way you stated by default? If so, cool. Makes sense.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    28
    You sure Babylon arent tied to any BIAS?

    Perhaps I have been lucky but every game I have had playing Babylon so far have been next to a river. Be it in Desert, forest, jungle or whatever. I allways start inland and next to a river.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    878
    Interesting read, thank you. Even though I knew they existed, I never really knew all of them or looked over them all at once. Also, good interpretations.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    999
    Excellent post, good sir. Once I pick Civ V back up, I'll be sure to keep this all in mind. Many of the biases I did not know about.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    200

    RE : Above Posters

    RE : Lord_Zath - Yes the Biases exist in EVERY game of civ UNLESS you select the advanced option to remove them; entitled something like NO START BIAS. I do not recommend doing this as it will nerf many opponents special abilities ie England or Ottoman may end up landlocked, or the Iroquois in a desert for example.

    RE : Beawolf - Yes I am as sure as I can be that Babylon has no start bias. Civilizations with start biases have entires dictating so and Babylon does not. Also Babylons UA, UU and UB do not really depend on any given terrain. Pretty much all of the Civilizations that do NOT have Start Bias do NOT need them. I realise the historical significance of Babylon and Rivers, but Start Bias in Civ V seem to not be tied to any cultural affinity. I believe they accomplish that with the choice of UA, UU, UB and than that flavours the start bias ie Arabia = Desert. You could also check the file yourself if you would like clarification. Just scroll down the bottom and look for anything pertaining to a start bias. It will be easy to spot if I have indeed made a mistake.
    You may also be interested that your choice of oppoment Civs (if you do not go random) may end up affecting your starting position (or any other civs without Start Bias's). I imagine that civs with start bias' are placed first and then those without placed around them. If you choose many of the same civs each time this may tend to restrict the variety of terrain you end up with (also smaller map sizes will most likely make things more homogenous too IMO).

    FOR EXAMPLE

    Choose PANGEA and TINY map (4Civs), now choose England, Spain (DLC) and Ottoman for your opponents and make sure you choose a civ without a start bias for your civilization. The result will likely be an inland starting position for you.

    This is just one example so you can see how predictable behaiviour can come from a random start position without a start bias. I am not meaning to suggest this exact scenario is happening to you each time.



    RE mwallyn + jpbar81 + Magean
    Thanks, glad you found the topic interesting/helpfull. I am looking into a number of XML files and will likely be making more posts about various engine mechanics in the coming weeks, so you might find something interesting. Also there is a Diplomacy XML take I posted a couple of days ago that may help. It is of limited value at the moment but does provide a little clarificatioon when it comes to making AI civs happy/unhappy.

    PS CAPITALS have been used for clarification purposes only, not intended to mean I am shouting or just being an arse

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    878
    Gabriel, I look forward to more XML compilations and observations.

    To save you the time of going thru it, I already created a spreadsheet of all the leader attributes if you're interested and want to make further interpretations:

    Leader Attribute Spreadsheet

    Note: I'm sure you'll come across Gandhi's nuke flavor of 12. I personally believe it's a bug and that extra "1" was accidentally typed. I changed his value to 2 in my games. Also, if you want to fix Elizabeth's XML file, scroll to the bottom of it and you'll notice there's an error and she has two water connection flavors (I'm not sure if it was fixed yet). Change the last one to what it was intended, the nuke flavor.

    There are a bunch of other tweaks I would personally make to enhance the leaders, but I'm going to wait until a few more patches are released.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Montréal, Canada
    Posts
    178
    Quote Originally Posted by jpbar81 View Post
    To save you the time of going thru it, I already created a spreadsheet of all the leader attributes if you're interested and want to make further interpretations:
    I noticed in your spreadsheet with the different values and tweaks of leaders that there was a religion line... What do you think that is? I read in another post that they had put religion in the xml, but probably removed the whole thing or didnt bother putting it in. Hopefully it means we will be getting some religion gameplay, that should add a bit more depth to the diplomacy...

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    999
    Quote Originally Posted by dukeisaac View Post
    I noticed in your spreadsheet with the different values and tweaks of leaders that there was a religion line... What do you think that is? I read in another post that they had put religion in the xml, but probably removed the whole thing or didnt bother putting it in. Hopefully it means we will be getting some religion gameplay, that should add a bit more depth to the diplomacy...
    Early in Beta, the devs WANTED religion to be in the game, but they didn't want to just recycle it from IV. Unfortunately, they couldn't find a way to implement it into the game effectively, so they pretty much dropped it. Hopefully, they are working on a new way to add religion back into the game. It was a nice feature in Civ IV, and if they build on it and improve it, it will be an awesome addition to V.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    878
    I think when initially designed, Civ5 had religion in it. But they decided to remove it because they thought without it diplomacy was enhanced and relied less on it. (They also believed opaque diplomacy was an enhancement.) Also, I personally believe it was removed so that it can instead be added in the next expansion to make it more enticing. Perhaps another reason is that they want to further revamp how religion works in the game instead of using the Civ4 model and it still needed more development.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    200

    RE - Posters + Religion

    jpBar81 : Yes I have perused you leader xml file previously, great work. I havn't looked to deeply into the exact values (mainly because I didn't want to know exactly what each leaders threshold was whilst playing, but I did check out all of the differing categories to get an idea of the depth of the system. As for Elizabeth, I actually usually play her so I would not have noticed any in game problems , however I will take a look at some point. As for the infamous Ghandi - 12 issue, it does sound like it was meant to be 2 or 1 and soemone had fat fingers . Then again if it is only a build value (can't remember), a large number of nukes does make for many peacefull neighbours.
    Am currently looking more deeply into the diplomacy through the log files. It is moderately complex and is taking some time to work out all of the acronyms, and unnamed columns. Would it have killed them to add column headers! . Looks like it will take a while, luckily I am on leave at the moment.

    RE - Religion - Remeber that the Civ V code base is built upon the Civ IV code base, as such there is legacy code that still lingers. I would bet money that Religion will be added in a future expansion. Game Devs post mortem of Civlization V (See Civ Fanatics) seemeed to indicate that several features were dropped (Religion, Espionage etc) due to time constraints resulting from inadequetly predicting the complexity of implementing a fully 1UPT system. I think the article went on to suggest that many of these mechanics were slated for inclusion in future expansions.

    Personally I can't wait till its added. It had always irked me (prior to Civ IV) that civ didn't include religion (regardless of how it was implemented). I realise the cultural sensitivities involved, still it should be in a game that simulates human technological/civil/cultural/et al evolution IMO.

    Civ on people.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    200
    Added Denmark Start Bias, and XML file, to the OP.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    28
    Ghandi's nuke 12 isn't really that unreasonable:
    Since the values are =/- 2 it ensures a 10; his production value is 5 (3..7 spread) so if he builds them he'll probably do it SLOWLY.

    I'm sorta upset that ALL civs don't have at least a river bias. Rivers were probably the cradles of EACH civilization.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    200
    I think they are referring to the fact that Ghandi was a pacifist.

    Also the bias' can range from 0 to 20, and are not rounded as far as I know.

    Thanks for the input though.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Lancaster, UK
    Posts
    11,667
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Pyyrhic View Post
    I think they are referring to the fact that Ghandi was a pacifist.

    Also the bias' can range from 0 to 20, and are not rounded as far as I know.

    Thanks for the input though.
    Well, these are personalities, not start biases... not quite clear which the thread is referring to...

    Personality flavours are apparently adjust by anything from -2 to +2 at the start of the game, according to what was said before release. I'm pretty sure that's where the 0 to 10 figure people quote is from as well.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    878
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybe View Post
    Ghandi's nuke 12 isn't really that unreasonable:
    Since the values are =/- 2 it ensures a 10; his production value is 5 (3..7 spread) so if he builds them he'll probably do it SLOWLY.

    I'm sorta upset that ALL civs don't have at least a river bias. Rivers were probably the cradles of EACH civilization.
    Personally, I think it is unreasonable.

    Yes, it ensures "at least" a 10. But that doesn't really justify anything or make it reasonable. 10 isn't really a max number or anything special. I don't believe it's a ceiling (though, i could be wrong). If it was, then you could say the reason it's 12 is to ensures he's at the max value 10 all the time (since higher values would defer to 10). That would then justify it and give a decent reason.

    But I don't believe it works that way. So saying "that" is just similar to saying if Gandhi had a value of 10, he'd have at least an 8. If he had a value of 11, he'd have at least a 9. It states the obvious and I feel it doesn't really prove anything. The value could've just been a 10 (which is more in line with everything else) and it would still have been very high compared to all other values. 12 is just strange.

    The reasons it feels unreasonable to me is:

    1) Throughout ALL the other leader flavors, the values range from 1 to 10 with the extreme values (1, 2, 9, and 10) being rare. 12 is just out there.

    2) Out of all the things this anamoly could've been and under whatever leader, it involves nukes and Gandhi. GANDHI. wtf?

    3) Looking at the Nuke Flavor alone, the next highest value is 8. Leaders like Montezuma and Catherine have an 8, and others like Alexander, Bismarck, and Genghis have a 7. Then there's Gandhi... with 12.

    I really would love for someone to explain why it is a 12, because then I wouldn't feel so compelled to change the value to a 2 and I would keep it as is and the way the developers created it. Gameplay justifications... historical justifications... anything besides the reason it's the "developers' little joke" later in the game (like Giant Death Robots <sigh>).

    I think he'd be much better off favoring defensive buildings (which he does at a 7, though maybe even an 8 would be better) and more defensive units being built (even if he's a pacifist) instead of relying on nukes way later in the game (if he survives until then).

    EDIT: The only reason I can think of to why he has such a ridiculous nuke value is that since he has such a low military training value (3), nukes can quickly even the playing field (by killing off many units in one shot) if a bully goes to war with him. But again, this only helps LATE in the game, so he may not even survive until then if he doesn't kiss major butt. Also, Ramesses has a similar situation I observed, with a high nuke flavor of 8 and military training of 3. Gandhi's is higher probably because he also has fewer cities.

    I think both of these leaders would be better off with medium values (instead of low) for military training and higher defense values instead of being silly nuke-hoarders.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •