Just Curious - Minerva's Den...
Who else was annoyed that Charles Milton Porter aka Sigma got to go to the surface and be saved while Delta who did all the work and had Eleanor to live for got to die? (Well live on through the adam Eleanor stuck herself with but that was a totally unsatisfying ending... Assuming you played it through to the good ending.)
I mean I get it that Porter was needed to rebuild the Thinker on the surface (for whatever reason -- I'm guessing it's supposed to be the beginnings of all our fine modern technology) but really?
I almost wish I hadn't bothered with Minerva's Den after I found out that ending... And truthfully I really only played it because it was more of Rapture... Although it truly did not fit with the rest of the series (yes that was explained away by the area being cut off from the rest of Rapture for years... but it just sticks out like a sore thumb).
I really did not expect anything before going into Minerva's Den so to be this unsatisfied after playing it is really disappointing. I mean when you go in with no expectations how can you come out of it with such a negative experience? Truly - it seems - that it was just a money grab that I fell for.
I found that Minerva's Den story was just as immersive and enthralling as the previous 2. The fact that Sigma got to leave the Den was in no way 'unfair' I don't quite see what you're getting at with this point to be honest. Sigma fought and won, as did delta. The only difference is sigma was not bound to a little sister and delta was. I also don't see how the good ending was unsatisfying, Delta would die either way. He then continued to do what he did in life in death, be Eleanor's concise.
Porter was able to be cured by Tenembaum and as he was one of the few souls in Rapture who kept his integrity and as such deserved redemption. He also created the thinker and so it showed loyalty to him and found a way to get him out.
When I found out who sigma was and on my journey to the Bathysphere I almost cried, It was the brilliant atmosphere I have come to expect from Bioshock. I really don't see how it didn't fit with the rest of the series it makes sense for rapture to have something like the thinker.
If it was a money grab then they would not have had new plasmids and weapons, as well as an intriguing story, a host of audio diaries and a great new villain as well as more of Rapture's Art Deco paradise. It gave us an insight into the running of Rapture and let us see more of the people of the city.There are DLC's that are money grabbing ventures but Minerva's Den was not one of them.
I loved Minervas Den as a whole, but I have to agree with some points of kittenCorn.
The reasons we all liked the good ending to Bioshock 1, was because... well heck. Everyone liked Jack. And having him die either way would have been stupid.
So it stands to reason that in Bioshock 2, when we get to feel this new bond with "Johnny Top-Side", we dont want him dying if we tried really hard to be the good guy. I mean, for Petes sakes to make it worse, we watch Sophia Lamb live! She made you shoot yourself in front of your daughter then hoard you with enemies afterwards, and what do you get out of it if your good? Well, you get the satisfaction of being a conscience for someone you really don't control.
So anyway, I found Minervas Den to be a fantastic expansion to the Bioshock franchise and seeing as the Rapture Metore Map Pack was a bust, this is without a doubt. My favorite bioshock DLC.
Yes, it seems unfair that Porter not only lives, but returns to normal. But hey.
Its a game.
We gotta adapt to what it gives us, and make us appreciate each persons story even more so. Whether its Jacks, Andrew, "Top-Side", Bill, Cohen, Porter or even the Thinker. They all have their beginnings..... and they all have their ends...
Aw well Atlas as far as I've seen from the threads you're hardcore into these games. Don't get me wrong I love them too. I play and replay both the first and second games as much as I can and am never tired of them (You could probably ask me anything about the game or it's back story and I'd have the answer for you). But I'm not going to overlook places where the game obviously lacks. The first bioshock was amazing. It had great game-play and an amazing story. The second bioshock can't even touch the first one but I love it because I get to be a big daddy (they have always been the most intriguing part of Rapture to me) and the game-play was definitely improved upon considering... I'm literally dying for Bioshock Infinite... I can't wait.
Ryans Rapture explains my point a bit better. And yea it's a game. I'm not going to dwell but I was just curious as to some other people's opinions.
Regardless Minerva's Den... maybe I need to replay it, but I just don't see it as being that great - possibly because it was just DLC so it was relatively short and there's only so much you can do with that.
Now I did cry when I found out Delta had to die in the end and it didn't matter how you played he still died. I can't really say he lived on through Eleanor because really she only got his memories (so x that on my first post)... A reminder of his good deeds in Rapture. So just considering his story in whole (finding rapture, getting ☺☺☺☺ed over, experimented on, turned into a big daddy, bonded, forced to kill himself, finding Eleanor just to have their bond broken, then he dies)... I think Johnny Topside deserved not only his life, but to be restored way more that Porter did. But that's not how it happened and it's only my opinion.
Couldnt have put it better myself. Although, since Porter WAS a DLC. We knew it had to be some outrageous ending, and sure. They could have ended it off with, the big daddy is actually Porter. But it almost seemed like a back-up by 2k, to say "we may or may not make a real conclusion to Rapture." IF it does end there, It will be dissapointing. But hey, they gave us an ending. No matter how stupid it was. But if there is a 3rd Rapture story, Minervas Den already gains an extra 2+ points in my book.
Originally Posted by kittenCorn
I know where you are coming from, but that's just how things go. It would not be Bioshock if everything went fine, it needs some darkness in it. That's just my opinion of course.
I don't really see what your getting at. The ending in bioshock 2 (at least the good ending-The one I got) was happy (Without getting into a full explanation why...that should be left for another thred) but the ending in Minerva's Den is both sad and sickening. You should go and play it again if you think Porter get's out of Rapture scot free feeling all hunky dory. he's left a broken spirit forced to walk in the shodow of people without any life of his own-In a way i guess you could say he's like a ghost. Hardly any better then staying in Rapture as a big daddy, as everything that was stolen from him by becoming one isn't returned, the only thing he's left with are faint memories of his former life that he has to eventually turn away from. Porter: 'I lost everything my voice, my memories-everything that makes me a man'
Originally Posted by kittenCorn
It was sad that Delta had to die, but that's just the thing; Delta had to die. There's no way he could have adapted to society and quite frankly he would have stuck out like a sore thumb. I see Delta's death not as an unfair depressing thing, but as a way for Elenore to grow. In the end Delta is the one that makes Elenore who she is, wither that's an evil tyrant or a loving and helpful individual. I see Delta's Death to make more sense when it comes to the good ending because like I said he passes his choices onto his daughter and she see's his death as a means of motivation in order to save her sisters.
When it comes to Porter I understand why he lived and it make sense. The thinker was behind Porter's survival, Delta didn't really have any useful allies. And in the end Porter could be turned back into a human unlike Delta who would remain the way he was. Minerva's den was interesting and honestly it's on my top ten lists or DLC. I think that Porter is an essential piece to the Bioshock story (at least the rapture one), because he will end up helping (or at least helped) Brigid Tenenbaum create a cure to the effects of Adam. it was sad that Delta had to die, but all the characters contributed to a good cause (if you went good that is).
Maybe they saw sense and made a lot less depressing ending for Minervas Den.
Realised killing your hero off is a bad idea.
I don't get why they had Delta die at the end of B2, at all. It's completely unnesessery.
Sometimes makers learn things after making the main game and add them to the dlc.
Dlc are usually better in many ways than the main game, sometimes.
You can't continue after Fallout New Vegas ends, but you can return to the dlc places. Clearly they learned stuff and realised things after the main game was made.
Fallout 3 is more a case of mopping up the wtf! filled debris and fixing a braindead idea no one thought was good. As in the deranged killing the Lone Wanderer off, then making Broken Steele so no one dies, and you can continue playing.
That's a different way of viewing the situation that I hadn't considered. Thanks!
Originally Posted by StudiedApollo8
I think this is the first time, I've seen some people talk negatively about Minerva's Den. I've heard many people, including myself even prefer it over the Bioshock 2 main campaign, to each their own. I think Studied Apollo brings a good perspective too it.
Minervas Den was a real treat, especially for PC players who almost did not get a chance to play it. 2K really outdid themselves when they made MD, it answered many questions about the lore of Rapture and the story. IMO, it was much better than BS2. The art direction was fantastic and the game play was decent. I can honestly say the MD DLC was the best amount of money I have spent for such add-ons to games, and coming from me that is saying something.
Thanks again 2K <3
I honestly liked Minerva's Den better than the main campaign. I don't see anything to complain about...
Originally Posted by kittenCorn
As someone else said, Porter maybe got out of Rapture, but he didnt escape his life. Delta's death fit in with the shaping of Eleanor and he was really just an re-animated corpse anyway - someone who already was supposed to be dead.
Porter also now probably has the IRS after him for back taxes as well as other government agencies very interested in where he was for 20 years.
For a MMORPG plot both he and Tenenbaum face the same thing and cant really get anything done back on the surface where they are oddities and wont fit in (if they ever did) which would bring one or both back to Rapture eventually.
Porter must now cope with the empty void in his heart that his deceased wife once filled. The ending supposedly had Porter reach a form of closure with his wife's passing, but the shakiness in his voice leads me to believe otherwise. I honestly can't blame him; losing a loved one is not something you just bury in the past and forget about.
All in all I was happy to see Tennenbaum and Porter escape Rapture, but one thing that still bugs me is what happened to the Little Sisters that were with Tennenbaum? They weren't waiting in the Bathysphere with her when Porter arrived.
On another note:
No amount of words could properly portray my rage towards Delta dying at the end.
Delta went through HELL and back just to reunite with Eleanor, and what is his reward? A life-stealing pillow to the face and a big hug from a wall of explosives. Methinks Eleanor would've been much happier with Delta physically there with her as opposed to having his memories/DNA in her.
Delta wouldnt fit it too well on the Surface, but they might have made an interesting game GTA style of him attempting to try...
I didnt care for the so called 'good-ending' either, as 'her having his memories' (? to what extent ? all we saw it was was like snippets of video tape), is not the same as 'being with her' any more than with someone having a picture of a deceased relative (from the deead relatives point of view).
Tennenbaum could cure Delta just like she cured Porter.
If worse comes to worst, Delta and Eleanor could've opened up a seafood restaurant where the food is ALWAYS caught fresh! Delta's more than equipped for that.
Originally Posted by TrunkJunky
Delta would have to make periodic trips back to Rapture when he runs out of EVE (maybe someone will give him a bag so he can carry more than 5 of them...)
and I suppose he could scoop up a few more Little Sisters while he was there (and max out all his Plasmids and Tonics).
Tenenbaum might wait to cure him as she would need help taking the 'cure' back to Rapture and Delta would be very capable, especially if Eleanor went with him.
There, we have the plot for BS3: Rapture after Columbia crashes and burns.
Last edited by watchman; 11-10-2012 at 03:35 AM.