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Thread: Gods & Kings Super Sleuthing

  1. #1401
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    Riots could easily be the coups lost in translation

  2. #1402
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    When you capture cities, they usually have a few turns of anarchy.

    It'd be cool if riots meant that spies could put cities into anarchy sometimes.

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    Indeed. But when a spy is executed, do you have to advance to the next era to get another spy, or are there replacement recruits available?

  4. #1404
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herr Justo View Post
    Indeed. But when a spy is executed, do you have to advance to the next era to get another spy, or are there replacement recruits available?
    They said when you loose a spy you have to wait a few turns for a replacement, and the new spy is reset to level 1. Not sure how long of a wait.

  5. #1405
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    Going on a tangent topic here, but since the people on this thread are so well informed in terms of history I figured I'd ask here for a second opinion. I've been working on a series of historically based world scenarios that showcase the world at different times and am preparing to make changes when G&K comes out.

    The question is would you use the German or the Austrian civilization to represent the Holy Roman Empire?

    My current planned solution is to use the German civ from 1000AD-1200AD as the Holy Roman Empire, and then after 1200AD let the Austrian civ be the Holy Roman Empire and let the German civ be Teutonic Knights which would eventually establish Prussia which in turn leads to modern Germany. I also know that after 1500AD the Habsburgs of Austria were pretty much always the Holy Roman Emperors. I want to hear peoples thoughts on the matter, I'm trying to have my scenario setups ready for the June 19th release.

  6. #1406
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    I like your idea of having the Teutons be Germany and Austria be the Holy Roman Empire. In my opinion, it really doesn't matter. In gameplay terms, you're just giving the Holy Roman Empire Austria's UA while giving the Teutons Germany's UA, correct? Germany's UA definitely makes sense for the Teutonic Knights...for obvious reasons. In terms of UUs and UBs, you're probably going to have to give each of them something unique...though you could give the HRE the landschneckt. Doing so would, I suppose, make the HRE something of a cross between Germany and Austria.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SlickSlicer View Post
    I like your idea of having the Teutons be Germany and Austria be the Holy Roman Empire. In my opinion, it really doesn't matter. In gameplay terms, you're just giving the Holy Roman Empire Austria's UA while giving the Teutons Germany's UA, correct? Germany's UA definitely makes sense for the Teutonic Knights...for obvious reasons. In terms of UUs and UBs, you're probably going to have to give each of them something unique...though you could give the HRE the landschneckt. Doing so would, I suppose, make the HRE something of a cross between Germany and Austria.
    That's is one of my big issues, the Landsknecht, which represents the Holy Roman Empire, were first created by Maximilian I, Holy Roman Emperor who was a Habsburg! I feel like they should've given the Landsknecht to Austria in place of the Coffee House, and given Germany a Teutonic Knight UU, which given G&K's religious background, would have worked out nicely.

  8. #1408
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeneralY7 View Post
    That's is one of my big issues, the Landsknecht, which represents the Holy Roman Empire, were first created by Maximilian I, Holy Roman Emperor who was a Habsburg! I feel like they should've given the Landsknecht to Austria in place of the Coffee House, and given Germany a Teutonic Knight UU, which given G&K's religious background, would have worked out nicely.
    THere's already way too many mounted UUs in this game. Adding another one would be so lame. Spain, Byzantines, Siam, India, Carthage, Huns, Mongols, Austria, Sweden, Arabia, Greece, Ottomans and Songhai all have a mounted UU. It is getting tiresome.

  9. #1409
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    I feel like you can differentiate some of those. Siam, India and Carthage have elephants, which work quite a bit differently than most mounted units. Don't they have less movement but a ton of strength? They also don't use horses, which means that mechanically they hardly work like horses at all. I don't think they should add any more elephant uus at this point unless they're some kind of hybrid gunpowder/elephant UU (elephants with small cannons or gunmen mounted on them).

    I agree that there is somewhat of a saturation of other cavalry units here, but what kinds of future UUs do you want to see exactly? I think there should be some more UUs in the siege line personally, a few more modern uus and perhaps one or two more bowman uus (especially now that composite bowman is stuck in between archer & crossbowmen). I feel like there are, combined, a ton of musketman and riflemen UUs. I don't think they should add too many more. I could see them adding a new melee ship UU in the future if the quinquireme isn't one already.

    The Assyrians would be a good choice for siege towers, I believe, which might be an interesting new siege weapon they could add for them. Maybe what they could do is, in addition to damaging cities, damage any enemy unit that is within the city as well. I've expressed my idea for a Vietnamese cannon replacement already somewhere else...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pouakai View Post
    Riots could easily be the coups lost in translation
    I think that is the mostly likely possibility, and you can add the "selling tech" to the same category. It would be hard to believe that such significant features exist but have not been mentioned in any other previews.

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    For UU's the truth is no matter what, every civilization on Earth has been made up of Humans, and so its no surprise that when it comes to implementing technology for war we all tend to think alike. Look back at this thread and you'll see the argument of Welsh versus English Longbowman, that is but one example. The Spanish Tercio and the Holy Roman Landsknecht were inspired by Swiss Pikemen. Along with the Austrians, the Hungarians, Polish, French, Prussians, and Russians all fielded Hussars. Ships of the Line were part of all European navies not just England, they just had a bigger navy. The more you go towards modern times, the less unique a military becomes, today most of the world's armies are similar in everything from dress, to technology, to weapons.

    Until the advent of gunpowder, horses were seen as the greatest tool of warfare so its not surprising that many civs embraced their use, what made them unique was more the culture behind the horse rider rather then the weapons and armor used. Furthermore most unique units come from groups of military elites and nobility so its no surprise that they would be cavalry since for most of history foot soldiers were untrained peasants conscripted into armies, while the elite troops and nobles rode on horses or chariots.

  12. #1412
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arioch IV View Post
    I think that is the mostly likely possibility, and you can add the "selling tech" to the same category. It would be hard to believe that such significant features exist but have not been mentioned in any other previews.
    I think that might be the bit about selling intrigue to the highest bidder, which I've heard about elsewhere

  13. #1413
    Is anyone else surprised that not one bit of information has been released about changes to civics? I think faith can buy great people with a corresponding civic tree, but that's all I've heard.

  14. #1414
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pouakai View Post
    I think that might be the bit about selling intrigue to the highest bidder, which I've heard about elsewhere
    That would be pretty cool, if a player doesn't need to skyrocket relations and needs resources and money.
    And who would sell techs? I mean, isn't the point to steal techs you haven't researched yet? Why would you sell that?

  15. #1415
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    Looks like the final nail in the coffin of the tulip hypothesis to me:
    Quote Originally Posted by Well of Souls
    2012-06-10 G&K New Resources: The list of font icons shows that we know all the 7 new luxury resources (no Tulips).
    http://well-of-souls.com/civ/civ5_changelog.html

  16. #1416
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    What's that one between copper and salt? Obviously not tulips, but I can't tell what it is.

    EDIT: Oh I guess that would have to be crabs, wouldn't it? Can't really see it when it's that tiny.

  17. #1417
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    I think it's the crabs, non of the others look like crabs.

  18. #1418
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oosh View Post
    Looks like the final nail in the coffin of the tulip hypothesis to me:
    http://well-of-souls.com/civ/civ5_changelog.html
    There is also a fairly recent Dutch review that has stated that the Polder gains +hammer and +gold sometime in the Renaissance.

  19. #1419
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oosh View Post
    Looks like the final nail in the coffin of the tulip hypothesis to me:
    http://well-of-souls.com/civ/civ5_changelog.html
    What is the icon in the upper left? Looks like wood planks. I don't remember it from Vanilla.

    Also what are the flags, the daisy, mushroom and the ninja star for? I am assuming the Skull and Crossbows is for something a Privateer does.

  20. #1420
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlickSlicer View Post
    I feel like you can differentiate some of those. Siam, India and Carthage have elephants, which work quite a bit differently than most mounted units. Don't they have less movement but a ton of strength? They also don't use horses, which means that mechanically they hardly work like horses at all. I don't think they should add any more elephant uus at this point unless they're some kind of hybrid gunpowder/elephant UU (elephants with small cannons or gunmen mounted on them).

    I agree that there is somewhat of a saturation of other cavalry units here, but what kinds of future UUs do you want to see exactly? I think there should be some more UUs in the siege line personally, a few more modern uus and perhaps one or two more bowman uus (especially now that composite bowman is stuck in between archer & crossbowmen). I feel like there are, combined, a ton of musketman and riflemen UUs. I don't think they should add too many more. I could see them adding a new melee ship UU in the future if the quinquireme isn't one already.

    The Assyrians would be a good choice for siege towers, I believe, which might be an interesting new siege weapon they could add for them. Maybe what they could do is, in addition to damaging cities, damage any enemy unit that is within the city as well. I've expressed my idea for a Vietnamese cannon replacement already somewhere else...

    Siege units and naval units could easily be put in place of a few of these mounted units. Even getting rid of 2-3 of the horse based units would give the game a lot more UU variety. Spain should easily have a Naval UU given it's history crossing the Atlantic constantly, the Russian cossack could easily be changed to a T-34 as well. Even the Ottomans should get a naval unit since their UA is about being a naval power. French could lose an infantry unit and get a Cannon or artillery unit, the French through WWI had some of the best artillery made. Arabia does not need a camel archer... You could give it a unique missionary considering the rapid spread in its early imperial days.

  21. #1421
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    I also see a patriarchal cross and a catholic cross. It could be there are items here that are scenario only. Those are probably used in the fall of rome scenario? The one at the top left could be aetherium from the steampunk scenario. What's the one in the row 2nd from the botttom, between faith and espionage?

    No idea what some of those others are: pirate skull, ninja star, mushroom, flags, daisy, A...

  22. #1422
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    Maybe there's preset religions in Fall of Rome. West Rome could be catholic and East Rome orthodoxic. Oh, and the shuriken's probably a super duper awesome secret ninja unit!!1eleven

  23. #1423
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shark2346 View Post
    What is the icon in the upper left? Looks like wood planks. I don't remember it from Vanilla.

    Also what are the flags, the daisy, mushroom and the ninja star for? I am assuming the Skull and Crossbows is for something a Privateer does.
    I think the flags, daisy, mushroom and star have always been there, but not sure that they were ever used for anything.

    Edit: I think only the stuff after the stone icon are new.

  24. #1424
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minor Annoyance View Post
    Is anyone else surprised that not one bit of information has been released about changes to civics? I think faith can buy great people with a corresponding civic tree, but that's all I've heard.
    I'm not surprised about that, since the Social Policies are something that I would expect they would tweak right up to release day (and probably after). That's why I didn't even bother trying to track the changes; I figured it would be a waste of time.

    Quote Originally Posted by SamBC View Post
    I think the flags, daisy, mushroom and star have always been there, but not sure that they were ever used for anything.

    Edit: I think only the stuff after the stone icon are new.
    That's correct; all the icons before Stone (in the eighth row) were already in Civ V, and many aren't used for anything. The first icon in the upper left is a placeholder icon for whatever mod you're working on (the file comes from the modding tools). The icons following Stone are: Citrus, Copper, Crab, Salt, Truffles, Jewelry, Porcelain. The icon in between the dove and spy on the second to last row is the Inquisitor.

    Note that the icon now being used for Faith (third in the sixth row) was already in Civ V but unused... perhaps they had intended to use it as an icon for "peace."

  25. i just want to know this: how is the tech tree going to look like, cause the actual one is a complete fail, both on periods and location of techs

  26. #1426
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCivilizator View Post
    i just want to know this: how is the tech tree going to look like, cause the actual one is a complete fail, both on periods and location of techs
    We only know the early part of the new tree, because most of the preview builds apparently didn't go past the Medieval era.

    http://well-of-souls.com/civ/civ5_ex...tml#technology

  27. #1427
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shark2346 View Post
    Siege units and naval units could easily be put in place of a few of these mounted units. Even getting rid of 2-3 of the horse based units would give the game a lot more UU variety. Spain should easily have a Naval UU given it's history crossing the Atlantic constantly, the Russian cossack could easily be changed to a T-34 as well. Even the Ottomans should get a naval unit since their UA is about being a naval power. French could lose an infantry unit and get a Cannon or artillery unit, the French through WWI had some of the best artillery made. Arabia does not need a camel archer... You could give it a unique missionary considering the rapid spread in its early imperial days.
    I don't think they need to change much that's already in the game.

    I like the French foreign legion. The musketeer is a little bit boring I guess. I wouldn't mind if they replace that with something else, but you didn't really list anything specific. I'd actually vouch for something like a pavise crossbowman.

    I like the Russian Cossack. I liked Arabia's Camel Archer before they added Keshiks, even considering that the camel archers do not use horses. Now Arabia's camel archer kinda seems underwhelming admittedly. I could see Spain getting some kind of heavy galleon with low movement but more power...but personally I like their Conquistadores and Tercios as well. I think those fit Spain better and add enough to the game to be justified.

    So I guess my conclusion here is that I'm ok with Musketeers and Camel Archers getting an overhaul. The rest? Eh...

  28. #1428
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    Ok, so its about a week till G&K is released and I'm feeling desperate for information, they have yet to release podcast for G&K and it's the last week! Information, a kingdom for information!

  29. #1429
    Well, there is this new review:

    http://www.gamer.nl/preview/295357/c...kings-hands-on

    Here is a translation of the interesting parts care of CanaDutch on CFC

    The unique bonuses of The Netherlands are particularly strong in the Renaissance period, which also was the moment the preview version came to an end. We have not completely been able to put the effectiveness under the microscope. The Netherlands can construct a Polder on Floodplains and Marshes, making it yield more food. In later periods, you get more production points and gold from it. The other unique unit is the Sea Beggar (The Beggars), a strong ship that can attack cities and conquer enemy ships.

    As a unique feature, the Netherlands has the Dutch East India Company (VOC), allowing you to retain 50% of your Happiness when you trade away one of your last luxury goods. Well, the Dutch will even sell their grandmother for money.

  30. #1430
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    If it can conquer a ship, do you think it gets to capture it?

  31. #1431
    That is what I figure. The question is: is it just the Sea Beggar that does it, or can all Privateers do it? I think it's just the Sea Beggar.

  32. #1432
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlickSlicer View Post
    I don't think they need to change much that's already in the game.

    I like the French foreign legion. The musketeer is a little bit boring I guess. I wouldn't mind if they replace that with something else, but you didn't really list anything specific. I'd actually vouch for something like a pavise crossbowman.

    I like the Russian Cossack. I liked Arabia's Camel Archer before they added Keshiks, even considering that the camel archers do not use horses. Now Arabia's camel archer kinda seems underwhelming admittedly. I could see Spain getting some kind of heavy galleon with low movement but more power...but personally I like their Conquistadores and Tercios as well. I think those fit Spain better and add enough to the game to be justified.

    So I guess my conclusion here is that I'm ok with Musketeers and Camel Archers getting an overhaul. The rest? Eh...
    I want the Landschlekt to be removed from Germany. Those guys were really just Mercenaries and they didn't really fight for Germany. The Messerchmit, Flak 88, Fallschirmjäger, Junkers ju 87, Nebelwerfer, U-boats, Volksgrienaders, Sturmtroppen, Free Legions, Teutonic Kights, and Pak 38s could all replace them.

  33. #1433
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    Quote Originally Posted by PachaMinnie View Post
    I want the Landschlekt to be removed from Germany. Those guys were really just Mercenaries and they didn't really fight for Germany. The Messerchmit, Flak 88, Fallschirmjäger, Junkers ju 87, Nebelwerfer, U-boats, Volksgrienaders, Sturmtroppen, Free Legions, Teutonic Kights, and Pak 38s could all replace them.
    I don't think its right to just focus so much on Germany's World War accomplishments, they accomplished many things before then but that said, the Nebelwerfer has always fascinated me, its one of the reasons a like playing CoH.

    But while we're talking about uniques, is there still no info the Coffee House?

  34. the biggest mistake here is that the tech tree is all wrong, trirreme are greek, so they are classical, galleas were used by romans, classical again, iron was used even before the classical period, so its ancient, the renacience is a sub-period of medieval, so is industrial from modern, and romans did have crossbows, so its classical, the longest periods are ancient and medieval, the classical period was the timeline inside the ancient era that greeks and romans used, ancient begun with the invention of writing (agriculture is prehistory) and ended with the fall of rome, the medieval started with the fall of rome and ended with the discovery of America, the modern started with the discovery of America and ended with the french revolution, and the actual era, the contemporanea (dont know the name in inglish) started with the french revolution and havent ended

  35. #1435
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    The tech tree isn't meant to mimic history to the T. It can't, really, or the developers' hands will be tied on ensuring balance and smooth gameplay. I agree it starts to look very strange when you take a close look at what techs lead to what, but I guess those are the kinds of suspensions of belief we make for a good game.

    Anyway, everyone, can we not bog down the thread too much with discussion not related to news/speculation regarding Gods & Kings? Asking, for instance, if there's been news regarding any of the other balance changes to vanilla Civs is perfectly fine. Saying what you want the changes to be, on the other hand... This isn't the correct thread for that.

    Thanks much all!

  36. #1436
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCivilizator View Post
    the biggest mistake here is that the tech tree is all wrong, trirreme are greek, so they are classical, galleas were used by romans, classical again, iron was used even before the classical period, so its ancient, the renacience is a sub-period of medieval, so is industrial from modern, and romans did have crossbows, so its classical, the longest periods are ancient and medieval, the classical period was the timeline inside the ancient era that greeks and romans used, ancient begun with the invention of writing (agriculture is prehistory) and ended with the fall of rome, the medieval started with the fall of rome and ended with the discovery of America, the modern started with the discovery of America and ended with the french revolution, and the actual era, the contemporanea (dont know the name in inglish) started with the french revolution and havent ended
    Firstly, a Galleass is not the same as a Galley, they were hybrid sail-and-oar vessels that were most widely used in the 16th century.

    Secondly, the technical terms used by historians are less relevant to a video game than the vernacular use of the same terms. There are also gameplay reasons to divide the timeline into more eras than you describe.

  37. #1437
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeneralY7 View Post
    I don't think its right to just focus so much on Germany's World War accomplishments, they accomplished many things before then but that said, the Nebelwerfer has always fascinated me, its one of the reasons a like playing CoH.

    But while we're talking about uniques, is there still no info the Coffee House?
    But their current Unique wasn't really a unit in their army. It never truly fought for the Fatherland like all of those units did. I like playing CoH too man.

    The Americans need a new Unique to UB: Starbucks.

  38. #1438
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCivilizator View Post
    the biggest mistake here is that the tech tree is all wrong, trirreme are greek, so they are classical, galleas were used by romans, classical again, iron was used even before the classical period, so its ancient, the renacience is a sub-period of medieval, so is industrial from modern, and romans did have crossbows, so its classical, the longest periods are ancient and medieval, the classical period was the timeline inside the ancient era that greeks and romans used, ancient begun with the invention of writing (agriculture is prehistory) and ended with the fall of rome, the medieval started with the fall of rome and ended with the discovery of America, the modern started with the discovery of America and ended with the french revolution, and the actual era, the contemporanea (dont know the name in inglish) started with the french revolution and havent ended
    But then, it's just a game. Yes, it does reflect our real world, but obviously it has to bend some things to match game mechanics. I think most of the things make decent sense in terms of real world logic as well as in-game mechanics. There are a couple of strange choices (Metallurgy coming after Bronze Working, Iron Working and Steel always struck me as somewhat odd, but I suppose it's ment to be the scientific description of metals), but overall my main gripe with the tree is with regard to game mechanics rather than logic or history.

    One of the things that really annoy me is the position of the technology Steel. You don't benefit in any way of this technologi if you don't have access to Iron (which is already a major setback), and yet you have to research this technology before getting access to Gunpowder which gives you the next accessible melee unit. That's just poor game design because you reward those who have access to Iron and punish those who don't have access to Iron twice. A technology like Steel is very problematic because it only provides you access to a military unit that requires a Strategic Ressource that you already know whether you have access to before you research it. Therefore, I think Steel should be either in a dead-end subbranch (you can skip it if you don't have access to Iron) or in a branch that's only continued much later (for instance, you don't need Steel to unlock anything before Steam Power or Railroad), which would allow you to put it on hold for a long time until it has gone down in price relative to other techs. Alternatively, Steel should give additional benefits like a new building or whatever besides just the Longswordman, so that it does have a value even for those with no access to Iron.

  39. #1439
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    Quote Originally Posted by PachaMinnie View Post
    I want the Landschlekt to be removed from Germany. Those guys were really just Mercenaries and they didn't really fight for Germany. The Messerchmit, Flak 88, Fallschirmjäger, Junkers ju 87, Nebelwerfer, U-boats, Volksgrienaders, Sturmtroppen, Free Legions, Teutonic Kights, and Pak 38s could all replace them.
    For gameplay purposes, I prefer the landschnekt. They're about as legit as giving Italy a condottieri unit, true, but they help fill a huge gap in Germany's playstyle. If you give them two modern units, it's really troublesome. I like the gameplay function of the landschnekt. They're super quick to produce and fits Germany's playstyle of unit flooding (through barbarian captures, cheaper troop maintaining costs, etc.) to a tee.

  40. question: what it is Vanilla Civ V, cause im no expert on civ technicall stuff ( i started playing Civ like one or two months before the realese of G&K and just because i was looking at pauljnr. channel, we are at the corner of the world, so i was kinda screwed on getting video games until i met steam XD )

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