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Thread: The Civ5 religion symbols

  1. #1
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    The Civ5 religion symbols

    Now that the 11 religions have been identified, it's time to discuss whether some of their symbols are appropriately used. As I said, here comes the dreaded "you get other cultures wrong" complains !

    This topic is about the purely cosmetic element of religious symbols, not the religion gameplay.


    1. The sorting order
    Religions should be sorted by some logical order such as relationship and geography, not alphabetically as it is now in the screenshot, period. It's weird to see Buddhism, Hinduism and Sikhism scattered through the list.


    2. Zoroastrianism
    Civ5 is using Faravahar for Zoroastrianism, which is normal. However, in order to make the symbol fit into the interface, the "eagle disc" of Faravahar in Civ5 is drawn with curved wings instead of horizontally spread wings.

    Have Firaxis actually consulted any expert on Zoroastrianism to see whether this is an acceptable variation of Faravahar that has been used in real history?

    3. Tengriism
    Since we only have one comparatively unreliable website as source for this symbol, this again is a question for the experts: is it a good symbol for representing Tengriism? There are a few very commonly used sacred Mongolian symbols, some already used by the Civ series before, and this eagle symbol doesn't seem to be one of them.


    4. Confucianism
    Prior to this announcement, I have never heard of the idea of using "water" to represent Confucianism, and I do know one thing or two about its history.

    It appears this is a very recent development, or at least only becomes popular recently, and happens entirely in the West.

    The problems are:

    1) The font.
    I mean no offense, but the current Civ5 symbol is drawn by an artist who clearly has no knowledge about how to write Chinese, and it appears ugly and plain wrong in Chinese eyes. No matter which character is used for the Confucianism symbol, this would make it unauthentic.

    The solution is simple: find a person who has enough knowledge about caligraphy; let her pick a good caligraphy writing from ancient history, whether in "regular script" or "clerical script". Don't use any print-style fonts such as Ming, Imitation Song or Sans Serif, because those would be too mechanical and lifeless for such a symbol.

    2) The character.
    Debating whether "water" is a suitable symbol for Confucianism would be a big topic, and I do not yet know the reasoning behind this choice.

    However, I can make some suggestions based on common sense:

    -"Water" is not an especially bad symbol; I kind of like it. However, it doesn't hold any particularly deep sacred or ideological value for Confucianism, and if you ask a real ancient Chinese scholar for a symbol to represent Confucianism, "water" would not be the first thing that comes into his head.

    -Civ4 used the character of "luck". This a symbol the Chinese culture likes, but again has no association with Confucianism. It actually is an even worse fit than "water", because of its connection to the supernatural, which Confucianism does not trust.

    -The character for Confucianism itself is 儒 ru. However it is not a good symbol. Visually-speaking, it's too complex, and not a very beautiful character. In terms of meaning, it's a neutral word that only refers to a person - a scholar, not the values and ideals. It doesn't even refer to an ideal person that embodies the ideal of Confucianism - that would be 君子 junzi "gentleman". It's absolutely not a sacred symbol that a Confucian scholar would put up in his hall.

    -The character that does represent the central value of Confucianism, is 仁 ren. Even the most basic research would find it, since it's the first subsection in the Wikipedia entry of Confucianism!
    Last edited by cuc; 02-16-2012 at 09:52 PM.

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    Ah yes. Another poster on Civfanatics has reminded me, a much more severe improper use of religious icon - the Buddha's head in Ramkhamhaeng's background has yet to be fixed. (In Buddhism traditions, a statue of Buddha should always depict the whole body.)

    I don't think Firaxis would change any of the pre-existing symbols in Civ5 such as Isabella's cross. But it'd be really nice if they fix that statue.

    And also give Wu Zetian her missing diplomacy animations.

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    1. I actually don't mind the alphabetization that much, so I don't really see a need to re-arrange them. Plus, there are some problems if you try to find a logical order for all 11.

    You can do a semi-geographical one that also kinda takes into account relationships and come up with:

    Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, Sikhism, Buddhism, Tengriism, Taoism, Confucianism, Shinto

    But I have problems with that order as it overlooks important relationships. The first 5 are fine. Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are obvious, and Judaism and Islam have had significant impact on each other during the middle ages. Islam was also highly influenced by Persian Zoroastrianism. Zoroastrianism and Hinduism are both descended from the same pre-Vedic religion. But, here's where the problems start. You have to kind of group Hinduism, Sikhism, Buddhism for geographical reasons BUT Buddhism and Hinduism should really go next to each other because they are both descended from the same Vedic religion (and more closely related). However, Buddhism, Taoism, and Confucianism are the big three in China and should really be grouped together. Thing is you can't really do this if you're making space for Sikhism (and for Tengriism, which if you don't put there you can't really put at the end as it messes up the geographical scheme). Finally, Buddhism should also go next to Shinto due to the huge syncretization between the two in Japan, but you can't really do that with the order, either.

    I'd actually rather have the alphabetical list than a semi-geographical one that gets some relationships right but messes up others.

    2. There are actual versions of the Faravahar with two sets of wings, one set is straight out like the traditional image, and the other set curved like in the icon. I have never seen just a curved version, only ever in an image with 4 wings, but depicting the wings like that is not without precedent. I can't claim to be an expert or practitioner of Zoroastrianism, so my opinion comes with a grain of salt, but I don't actually mind the stylization all that much. One, the symbol is related to the winged-sun symbol of neighboring religions, and the stylization highlights the circular motif which is important. Secondly, the stylization also somewhat resembles fire, which is a central aspect of Zoroastrianism. If it's between having a really small symbol or one stylized the way they did, I think the icon is fine.

    3. The Tengriism symbol is more specifically a symbol of the god Tengri. I can think of one or two more obvious symbols to use for the religion, but as there's no official symbol that represents it, the chosen one is fine. Sacred Mongolian symbols don't necessarily always reflect Tengriism, nor is/was Tengriism solely a Mongolian religion so not using symbols used previously by the franchise is fine as well.

    4. I've seen the water symbol used for Confucianism before and I know it has some degree of popularity, but I can't really comment how appropriate it is or if it is more a West vs. East thing.
    Last edited by istry555; 02-17-2012 at 12:02 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by istry555 View Post
    1. I actually don't mind the alphabetization that much, so I don't really see a need to re-arrange them. Plus, there are some problems if you try to find a logical order for all 11.

    You can do a semi-geographical one that also kinda takes into account relationships and come up with:

    Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, Sikhism, Buddhism, Tengriism, Taoism, Confucianism, Shinto

    But I have problems with that order as it overlooks important relationships. The first 5 are fine. Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are obvious, and Judaism and Islam have had significant impact on each other during the middle ages. Islam was also highly influenced by Persian Zoroastrianism. Zoroastrianism and Hinduism are both descended from the same pre-Vedic religion. But, here's where the problems start. You have to kind of group Hinduism, Sikhism, Buddhism for geographical reasons BUT Buddhism and Hinduism should really go next to each other because they are both descended from the same Vedic religion (and more closely related). However, Buddhism, Taoism, and Confucianism are the big three in China and should really be grouped together. Thing is you can't really do this if you're making space for Sikhism (and for Tengriism, which if you don't put there you can't really put at the end as it messes up the geographical scheme). Finally, Buddhism should also go next to Shinto due to the huge syncretization between the two in Japan, but you can't really do that with the order, either.

    I'd actually rather have the alphabetical list than a semi-geographical one that gets some relationships right but messes up others.

    2. There are actual versions of the Faravahar with two sets of wings, one set is straight out like the traditional image, and the other set curved like in the icon. I have never seen just a curved version, only ever in an image with 4 wings, but depicting the wings like that is not without precedent. I can't claim to be an expert or practitioner of Zoroastrianism, so my opinion comes with a grain of salt, but I don't actually mind the stylization all that much. One, the symbol is related to the winged-sun symbol of neighboring religions, and the stylization highlights the circular motif which is important. Secondly, the stylization also somewhat resembles fire, which is a central aspect of Zoroastrianism. If it's between having a really small symbol or one stylized the way they did, I think the icon is fine.

    3. The Tengriism symbol is more specifically a symbol of the god Tengri. I can think of one or two more obvious symbols to use for the religion, but as there's no official symbol that represents it, the chosen one is fine. Sacred Mongolian symbols don't necessarily always reflect Tengriism, nor is/was Tengriism solely a Mongolian religion so not using symbols used previously by the franchise is fine as well.

    4. I've seen the water symbol used for Confucianism before and I know it has some degree of popularity, but I can't really comment how appropriate it is or if it is more a West vs. East thing.
    1. Arranging them by historical foundation date might be better. Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Buddhism, Confucianism, Taoism, Christianity, Tengriism, Islam, Shinto, Sikhism.
    4. The problem is Confucianism is more of a philosophy than a religion. It sought to institutionalise ancestor worship but by itself has no true religious doctrine. Many Chinese who still adhere to the old beliefs subscribe to a syncretic combination of worshipping of Chinese folk gods (aka Taoist deities, even though Taoist philosophy does not cover deities too), Buddhism and Confucian principles. One common interpretation of the Chinese pantheon has the Jade Emperor ruling over many Immortals who include Confucius and Laozi, with Buddha being the Jade Emperor's rough equal. Chinese Buddhism is so different from the original, which was essentially atheistic. One finds that a Chinese "Taoist" or "Buddhist" rarely subscribes exclusively to just one of these doctrines. Also, you'll never find a "Confucian" no matter how hard you look.
    If anything, the character 水 is more suitable for Taoism, with its focus on harmony with nature. As mentioned earlier, 仁or even 儒would make more sense. Personally, I think I'd favour 孝, meaning filial piety, or 君,referring to the ideal gentleman that Confucianism seeks to produce.

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    The symbol shui is fine for Confucianism. It is not the first time it has been used. However, the symbol is illustrated extremely poorly.

    The problem is Confucianism is more of a philosophy than a religion. It sought to institutionalise ancestor worship but by itself has no true religious doctrine.
    This is a problem with both Daoism (Laozi and Zhuangzi's writings can be taken as a philosophy rather than religion as well. Only later Daoist sects made it more like a belief system) and Confucianism. The line between philosophy and religion is kind of thin anyways. Confucianism does have a sort of cult behind it. In Civ IV I was kind of taken aback that they would include Confucianism as a religion, since prior to that I had considered it a philosophy. But I stopped to think about how Confucianism venerates Confucius himself as well as sets forth a moral code for people to follow. It also became somewhat institutionalized in later eras. In many ways it does resemble a religion. The distinction between philosophy and religion is hard to make.

    Ren was a very early symbol for Confucianists as well as a value indicating benevolence. It makes some sense, but I like shui better just because I like the character design better (opinion).

    Xiao or filial piety is extremely important in Confucianism, and Xiaolian was an important title in the Han dynasty indicating "Filially Pious and Incorrupt." But in of itself, the character refers to filial piety and would make it seem like Confucianism is a cult that purely stresses family relations. It is not (although those are very important).

    The two-character combination 君子 would make more sense. Jun on its own indicates a ruler or lord, or can be used in the 2nd person sense to address somebody formally (i.e. "my lord"). Junzi however indicates a nobleman or worthy person, and is used in the expression attributed to Confucius "Junzi bu qi"--The gentleman is not a utensil.

    Both Confucianists and Daoists often referred to Dao (the way) [道 ], and Confucianists at least often stressed Li (principle/reason) [理]. Another possibility is yi (義), which in Confucian doctrine is similar to righteousness.

    Syncretic, as you mentioned, is a pretty common way to refer to Chinese beliefs, but it can also be used even more generally. There were some hardliners who detested Buddhism or Daoism, but there were a lot of Chinese scholars who conversely tried to fuse ideas from all three big sects of thought (i.e. Confucianism, Buddhism and Daoism). Religion in China was a lot less exclusive than it was in the West. A person could have faith in several different beliefs instead of just one.
    Last edited by SlickSlicer; 02-18-2012 at 12:24 AM.

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    The symbol shui is fine for Confucianism. It is not the first time it has been used. However, the symbol is illustrated extremely poorly.
    Aesthetically, shui looks good, but it symbolises little about Confucianism. As a Chinese, for me the first thing it calls to mind is the Five Elements, and then the Art of War (for its insistence on being as flexible and flowing as water).
    But I stopped to think about how Confucianism venerates Confucius himself as well as sets forth a moral code for people to follow. It also became somewhat institutionalized in later eras. In many ways it does resemble a religion. The distinction between philosophy and religion is hard to make.
    The veneration of Confucius started amongst his disciples as a mark of respect for his wisdom, but it was only with the combination with Taoist rituals that he was elevated to the rank of deity and incense burnt to plead for his divine aid in one's studies. Taoism and Confucianism were in fact initially at odds well into the Han Dynasty, but that was because the Confucians' belief in hierarchy and the carrying out of proper rituals to maintain harmony of all under Heaven was met by the Taoist belief in living in harmony with nature, not influencing it. Taoism was a little anarchist when compared to the rigid philosophy of hierarchy proposed by Confucius, and Taoists were persecuted. Buddhism, entering its golden age during the Tang, was later persecuted heavily by the Confucians AND the Taoists, who from then on become more united. The Buddhist system of having young men forsake their families to enter monkhood was too much for Confucians, while the Taoists hated having their mystical influence curtailed by the rather atheistic Buddhists. Confucianism did not have missionaries or priests; but its role in government was indeed similiar to that of a state religion, using the Mandate of Heaven to legitimise the emperor.
    Later during the Song however, Confucian scholars integrated Buddhist and Taoist principles to create the Chinese folk religion that lives on till today, though many of the rituals and beliefs are fast disappearing in China itself thanks to the Cultural Revolution. Only amongst the Chinese diaspora in places like Taiwan, Hong Kong, Malaysia and Singapore are they still remembered.
    Xiao or filial piety is extremely important in Confucianism, and Xiaolian was an important title in the Han dynasty indicating "Filially Pious and Incorrupt." But in of itself, the character refers to filial piety and would make it seem like Confucianism is a cult that purely stresses family relations. It is not (although those are very important).
    The idea of filial piety though is essentially what gave legitimacy to the Emperor himself. As a father to his people, he was expected to be a benevolent and strict ruler, while his subjects would revere him and obey as a children their father. Of all of Confucius' principles, this is one of the most enduring, with the same idea of a benevolent autocratic(by Western standards) government ruling an obedient people now being applied in my country as well as in China. Certainly, 孝would be a lot more appropriate than 水. I also agree that 義 would be a nice option; so long they don't use the boring simplified character 义.
    Religion in China was a lot less exclusive than it was in the West. A person could have faith in several different beliefs instead of just one.
    From personal experience I can say, not really. The common folk religion in China differs from province to province mainly in which deities are more revered, but they all share the same pantheon of Taoist deities/immortals. They have a concept of hell even though in Buddhism, there is no such thing as hell. Yet the non-Taoist and non-Confucian idea of reincarnation is also prevalent.
    Chinese pride in their folk religion was very strong, to the point where Christianity was strongly rejected by many as being a religion of 'foreign gods'. Islam only ever spread to minority ethnic groups such as the Hui. Even today, as a Chinese Christian, I still identify with the hotchpotch of cultural and religious beliefs in Chinese folk religion that have nothing to do with the precepts of Confucianism, Taoism or Buddhism.

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    It's strange that there isn't really a separate religious name for Chinese folk religion. It sounds so quaint and provincial and yet is it essentially the major religion in China - part Buddhism, part Taoism, part Confucianism. There are Chinese who follow strict Buddhist sects, but most worship the folk religion that is all three religions/philosophies combined. If it had a niftier name than Chinese folk religion, then the game could use it instead and knock out both Confucianism and Taoism as they are solely philosophies and not religions at all once Chinese folk religion is removed from them. Gotta get a better name. It really is its own religion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joketa View Post
    It's strange that there isn't really a separate religious name for Chinese folk religion. It sounds so quaint and provincial and yet is it essentially the major religion in China - part Buddhism, part Taoism, part Confucianism. There are Chinese who follow strict Buddhist sects, but most worship the folk religion that is all three religions/philosophies combined. If it had a niftier name than Chinese folk religion, then the game could use it instead and knock out both Confucianism and Taoism as they are solely philosophies and not religions at all once Chinese folk religion is removed from them. Gotta get a better name. It really is its own religion.
    It's kind of like Hinduism, which is so varied that it's near impossible to pin down a proper definition as to what it is. The Europeans just decided to call them all Hindus, and the name stuck.
    Chinese folk religion is very reminiscent of paganism; it has no overarching, cosmic theology like Hinduism, so in spirit it's much closer to Greek paganism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joketa View Post
    It's strange that there isn't really a separate religious name for Chinese folk religion.
    I have come across some people refer to the Chinese folk religion as Shenism (Shénjiào, 神教), but not very often. I'm hesitant to think it has widespread acceptance as a name or if it's even an appropriate term considering the diversity of Chinese folk religion, and it may be more of the white man giving a name to Chinese religion than anything else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cuc View Post
    3. Tengriism
    Since we only have one comparatively unreliable website as source for this symbol, this again is a question for the experts: is it a good symbol for representing Tengriism?
    Of course, it is always difficult to value the reliability of a website.
    There are not many sources on the internet about tengrism, but I wonder why the source where the symbol is found is considered unreliable? (although the used font is awful).

    The website states
    "Circle of Tengerism is a organization dedicated to the preservation of Siberian and Mongolian shamanism.
    The purpose of this website is to educate Westerners about our ancient beliefs and to keep our traditions alive."

    Which to me gives the site some credibility. It's also listed as a top 10 site for shamanism (not that's worth anything at all, but apparently someone thinks the site is valuable).
    But, indeed, the internet is by definition unreliable.

    That said, there just aren't many symbols for tengrism. I believe someone here on the forum looked it up in a book too and also came across this symbol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by istry555 View Post
    I have come across some people refer to the Chinese folk religion as Shenism (Shénjiào, 神教), but not very often. I'm hesitant to think it has widespread acceptance as a name or if it's even an appropriate term considering the diversity of Chinese folk religion, and it may be more of the white man giving a name to Chinese religion than anything else.
    Unless I'm mistaken, that term literally would mean "Teachings of God" or at least "Teachings of the Divine."

    I'll get around to responding to other points when I have time. Just in regards to the points about syncretism though, I acknowledge that all of the big 3 beliefs (i.e. Confucianism, Daoism, Buddhism) were at odds with each other frequently. It's just that, nonetheless, over time some scholars began to accept aspects from all three of them. There were occasional proscriptions and diatribes against one or the other (Han Yu famously spoke out against Buddhism for example), but belief systems in China were still less mutually exclusive than they are in the West. A person could believe in some aspects of Confucianism and Daoism or Confucianism and Buddhism. In the West, one can't really be a Muslim and a Christian or a Christian and a Zoroastrian. Religions in the West are much less compatible to another. Compare that to developments in Chinese thought such as Xuanxue, which merged aspects of Daoism and Confucianism together.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SlickSlicer View Post
    Unless I'm mistaken, that term literally would mean "Teachings of God" or at least "Teachings of the Divine."
    Yeah, I think it's a case of Western academics trying to name Chinese folk religion. You see it get mentioned every now and then, at least in English books/papers, but nothing close to widespread use. I can't speak any dialect of Chinese, so I have no idea if it's ever been used outside of Western academia.

    When I first came across it, I think it was explained that "shen" can be translated as spirit or god, but also as stuff like consciousness, awareness, rule, administration, respect, teachings, ecstasy, magic? This always seemed like a huge amount of definitions being attributed to one word, and not having any knowledge of the language myself, I was never exactly sure how accurate that was.

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    Quote Originally Posted by istry555 View Post
    Yeah, I think it's a case of Western academics trying to name Chinese folk religion. You see it get mentioned every now and then, at least in English books/papers, but nothing close to widespread use. I can't speak any dialect of Chinese, so I have no idea if it's ever been used outside of Western academia.

    When I first came across it, I think it was explained that "shen" can be translated as spirit or god, but also as stuff like consciousness, awareness, rule, administration, respect, teachings, ecstasy, magic? This always seemed like a huge amount of definitions being attributed to one word, and not having any knowledge of the language myself, I was never exactly sure how accurate that was.
    In written Chinese, one word can often have several different meanings that are all correct. When translating it, you need to look at the context (both in the sentence and in the passage as a whole) to determine what meaning the author is using. Usually the different translations of a word are similar, but sometimes a word can have totally divergent meanings that only have abstract relations. Many words also evolved over time. A good example is the aforementioned 理 (li), which carried a slightly deeper usage in neo-Confucianism times than in earlier periods. So aside from knowing the context of a sentence and a passage, it's also often useful to know the historical context of any given work.

    Another example is "反," which can mean "to rebel," but it can also mean to go astray or to act obstinately or wrongly. The latter definition is kind of like "rebelling against what is right" or "rebelling against social custom." These are just some of the ways this word can be defined.

    When two characters combine, they can also mean something completely different than the original characters. Many words in modern Mandarin are combinations of two or more characters. An example would be the expression "馬馬虎虎." Taken literally this would mean "horse-horse-tiger-tiger," but it is actually an expression that means "so-so." In classical Chinese writing, combination words were a little bit less common though (it was more common for 1 character to =1 word).

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    Here in Taiwan (I'm not Taiwanese btw) you have Confucian temples, Buddhist temples, and "regular" temples. Confucian temples are uncommon and are not generally being built anymore. They are academies of the past and serve as places of interest for tourists, places for reflection, and culture centers. No worship happens here. The purely Buddhist temples are similar to ones you'd find in other countries such as Korea and Japan, or Southeast Asia, but with slightly different styles. They are more austere than the "regular" temples in Taiwan. They are also emptier, receiving far fewer day-to-day visitors. Mostly, you just see the monks shuffling around. The "regular" temples are not regular at all, but they are the most common ones. They are colorful, loaded with imagery and deity idols, and they are jammed-packed with worshipers every day. I don't have a name for them because they are all embodiments of the "Chinese religion". I have referred to them before as Taoist temples as most of the deities worshiped have been connected to Taoism, but really I don't know what to call them. They also don't appear to leave Buddhism out as you can easily see Guanyin in the same temple as Matsu. Nevertheless, it is clear that no one really knows where one religion begins and ends. Buddhist supposedly outnumber Taoists two to one in Taiwan, but it is the "regular" (Taoist) temples that are full and the Buddhist ones that are empty. The Buddhists are all going to the "regular" temples. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it really seems that most people are following an all-encompassing Chinese religion that doesn't have a name, so they're just picking the name Buddhism or Taoism out of a hat. Most Taiwanese people seem more comfortable calling themselves Buddhist than "of the Chinese religion with no name" which is what they really follow. The only thing people seem to be clear about is that Confucianism is not a religion, rather just a set of outdated civil and moral codes that they're forced to study in school.

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    I don't know much about religion, but looking at those icons makes me sad - they are all white, flat and boring. Civ4 at least had some colouring.

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    Correct me if I'm wrong, but it really seems that most people are following an all-encompassing Chinese religion that doesn't have a name, so they're just picking the name Buddhism or Taoism out of a hat. Most Taiwanese people seem more comfortable calling themselves Buddhist than "of the Chinese religion with no name" which is what they really follow. The only thing people seem to be clear about is that Confucianism is not a religion, rather just a set of outdated civil and moral codes that they're forced to study in school.
    You're more or less correct about that; but really though, when it comes to theology, the Chinese don't give a damn. For most worshippers, following the religion is a matter of burning joss-sticks, laying out offerings and visiting temples at regular rituals, as well as celebrating the various festivals. Some are vegetarian on certain days of the lunar month, others for longer periods, while some avoid beef all the time. Everyone observes their beliefs in different ways. Few give serious thought to theology as is often done in the West and Middle East.
    To put it simply, modern Taoism/Buddhism folk religion is very pagan nowadays; rather analogous to Greek paganism. Taoist mediums are a feature of many Chinese temples, and they claim to channel Taoist deities just as oracles supposedly channeled the spirits of prophecy.

    As for Confucianism, I would hesitate to say that it's outdated; as a code of ethics and morals, it remains an enduring feature of Chinese culture, though reverence for Confucius as a god is no longer very widespread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Geppenguin View Post
    As for Confucianism, I would hesitate to say that it's outdated; as a code of ethics and morals, it remains an enduring feature of Chinese culture, though reverence for Confucius as a god is no longer very widespread.
    I agree. Confucianism is too engrained in the culture to be outdated and most people's viewpoints have been so entrenched in Confucianism that they cannot separate themselves from it. Even if you grow up as an Atheist in America and never went to church, you are still very much saturated by general Christian ideology. I would wager that Confucianism has more hold on society and the way Chinese people think than does their religion, whatever it may be. I was just quoting general sentiment from young people I know in Taiwan. They may not even be aware of how much Confucianism in ensconced in their most basic thought patterns. They only know that they hate studying it.

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