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Thread: Sidearms are in (sorry for the obvious for some)

  1. #1
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    Sidearms are in (sorry for the obvious for some)

    Sorry, but I just noticed this.. yea, I'm slow this morning, haven't had my 3rd cup of coffee. From the screenshots, I see a sidearm in the pics, which is awesome.. I always carried sidearms in the original (but hardly ever used them). It IS nice that you don't have to 'equip' them, as typicially they would be easy to access and already 'equipped'.

    Yeay for Firaxis

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    Why do you think you don't equip them? Wouldn't that mean you wouldn't ever upgrade them? Maybe you mean something else.

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    I think we are talking about different things by the term 'equipping'. I meant you dont have to pull them out of your backpack and put them in your primary weapon hand (since that no longer exists). They seem to be available at all times. I don't think there is an 'equipping' mechanic in this game, given the lack of TUs. It seems to be part of the streamlining process. I think you are referring to equipping as the process, prior to the mission, of assigning weapons to soldiers. In that sense, yes, you are correct, Im sure you have to equip them prior to the battle. But I'm sure you will agree that there is no 'equipping' during the battle, given the lack of relevance of time units.

    PS- I just made 2 posts to your 1, when attempting to catch you up ;P

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    Well I'm not sure we have seen how that works yet. Can you cycle between all of the weapons cost free? Does it work the same way as switching to your rocket launcher? It may be, but I haven't seen anything to indicate that the sidearm acts any differently than any of the other weapons. Especially considering that the "cost" to fire a pistol will be the same as shooting a machine gun since they all take one 'action'. I wonder how they balance this?

    You put pistols in your backpack when they fit on your belt?

    PS- you have a long way to go

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    LOL yea, I do

    They mentioned there is no 'weapon backpack' any more, so I believe that before the mission, you will probably equip a primary wep, secondary wep (sidearm), and fill a couple slots with 'action' weapons such as frags, med packs, etc. I am of the belief, that when streamlining the game, they are going to just let you equip a fixed number of items (say two), regardless of their size or weight. Such as 2 rockets (ammo), 2 med packs, 2 frags, etc. I think they implied this in their interviews.

    Regarding weapons, take a look at the first screenshot here:
    http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/xcom-enemy-...1222583p1.html

    In the bottom right. To me, it looks like the X button will switch your primary and secondary weapons, since thats what the arrows around the X seem to imply. Possibly, the arrows may indicate a reload of your primary weapon, but that combo of arrows usually implies a 'switch' of items. Actually, even with the current mechanics (no TUs) they could still charge you one action for the switch.. although I guess that would be harsh considering you would not have an action available for a shot. I think the way to balance it is that the sidearms will do much less damage. Since you are allowed one shot/action and one movement per turn (excluding specials which may consume all) you may be able to switch to your sidearm for free and take a shot. The balance factor may be the fact that they do less damage. As in real life, I think the only time you would ever do this is if you need to reload your primary (or run out of ammo, which wont happen). I think that's a reasonable approach...

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    Sidearms are probably there just to make reloading less of an issue. If you run out of ammo for your primary weapon and can't afford to reload and fire, you can still switch to sidearm and fire. That's my guess anyway.

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    Yea.. that's gotta be correct Being. And also, for limited ammo weapons (ie- rocket launcher) you will need to back off to a sidearm after you expend your ammo... or will these units have an assault rifle backup ?? I can imagine it being a little stupid if you get 2 shots from your rocket or pistol rounds, and that's it for options.

    Speaking of which, the gas station demo, the guy that fires the rocket, isn't he using an assault rifle as a backup ?? Does he also have a sidearm? Gotta check.

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    The heavy in gas station demo has LMG, sidearm and the rocket launcher.

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    Honestly, if an assault rifle or machine gun is gonna come with unlimited ammo, I don't see what use a sidearm is going to be. Not unless it's to keep one hand free so you can equip a grenade in it.

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    @Being -- Wait up.. how the H does that work ?? I thought LMG was a separate class from the Heavy, who has exclusive use of the rocket launcher?? Unless its demo magic.

    Now I'm confused. That would make the heavy the uber class... LMG and Rocket Launchers for all. What's the point of anything else?

    @Goodfeller -- ammo is unlimited but clips are not. For example, your assault rifle has 8 rounds before you need a reload. Let's say last turn you used your last rounds and this round your 'action' would have to be reload (no shooting). However, an enemy approaches. You would instead have the option to switch to your sidearm and take a few pot shots rather than 'passing' your turn by reloading and getting smoked.

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    Quote Originally Posted by katscan View Post
    @Being -- Wait up.. how the H does that work ?? I thought LMG was a separate class from the Heavy, who has exclusive use of the rocket launcher?? Unless its demo magic.

    Now I'm confused. That would make the heavy the uber class... LMG and Rocket Launchers for all. What's the point of anything else?
    You're right. The Heavy has the LMG and the Rocket Launcher. It's in no way the uber class. I suspect LMG less acurate so they're mostly usefull for suppresive fire. Also, Rocket Launcher aren't that great when you want to bring back live alien specimens or not to blow up entirely a crashed UFO if you want alien artefacts for your scientists.

    Also, it's mostly the perks that classes have that matters the most in your choice, not necessarely the weapons they carry. We already know the assault has a run & gun ability that makes him able to move and fire on the same round, which is very nice. The sniper has high accuracy and heavy damage. Every class seem to have something great.

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    For some reason, I thought the support class had the LMG.. hmm. lemme go back and read up

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    Quote Originally Posted by katscan View Post
    For some reason, I thought the support class had the LMG.. hmm. lemme go back and read up
    The support class does suppression on an enemy, I forget which weapon with, in the gas station demo as well. But it's a less effective suppressive fire (halved debuff). Maybe that confused you?

    Not sure if the suppressive fire is available to all the classes as the weaker version.

  14. #14
    Unlimited ammo sucks. One of the great stuff of management is to know how to prepare your unit well from a weight/forepower ration.Ammo count, armies around the world aren t dropping 7,62 for nothing.
    I hope its demo too, but map seem they will be very small, hence the 6 men squad stuff.

    I happy to see Xcom stuff, but this title seem more lip stick than meat unfortunatly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alienWhipper View Post
    Unlimited ammo sucks..
    Gotta agree with ya. I'm not much in love with pistols either. But it's looking like we're stuck with these things whether we like it or not.

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    I just hope there are more sidearms available than standard,laser,plasma pistols. Something along the lines of a super shorty pumpaction shotgun would be cool.

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    When it comes to guns I hope that they have overcome the problem that you can begin researching the best rifle (heavy plasma) after the first mission. I'm guessing that's what the "weapon fragment" business is all about.

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    Your gun can be out of ammo temporarily, and it takes time to reload, but technically it is unlimited.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gen_Pho View Post
    When it comes to guns I hope that they have overcome the problem that you can begin researching the best rifle (heavy plasma) after the first mission. I'm guessing that's what the "weapon fragment" business is all about.
    Don't disagree. Can't say I'm a fan of the abstraction, though. Finding X, researching X, then manufacturing X... it just made sense. Much cooler than finding 50 gold coins and unlocking X.

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    One way to deal with unlocking best weapon asap would be to increase its research time a lot.. and have the lesser weapon researches give insight into the best one, reducing the time it takes? Not necessarily enough to make it faster to research plasma pistol, plasma rifle and then heavy plasma, but some sort sort of research time reduction anyway.

    Say it takes 80% of the time/resources to research heavy plasma directly as it would by researching pistol, rifle, heavy ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by katscan View Post
    Now I'm confused. That would make the heavy the uber class... LMG and Rocket Launchers for all. What's the point of anything else?
    From what Ive read, a rookie (aka. lvl 1) heavy weapons class will head out onto the field with 1 rocket for his launcher - it will take perks to get him carrying 2,3,4... etc. Plus as already stated, it sounds like using it will destroy any items in the area (shown in the secondary hemisphere?) rendering them useless for study.

    So taking a squad of heavies out to do combat will get you the kills and promotions you like, but with nothing to study I think your game would be over before its begun.

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    Sidearms could be useful if they present a tactical choice.
    Just being an extra weapon in case you're out of ammo doesn't sound sound like much of a reason to choose a sidearm over say, a shotgun as a 2nd weapon.

    For instance, having a pistol-sized sidearm could allow you out-of-turn reaction fire while moving. Some interesting tactical option.
    As a purely logistical option they aren't that interesting.

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    I did 10+ years in the military and never heard of someone who emptied their rifle magazine and pulled a pistol rather than reload their rifle. Then again I don't know everything.

    Sidearms are there for when you lose your rifle (you probably got blown up by an IED or RPG) or the rifle breaks or you're so deep up ☺☺☺☺ creek that you run out of ammo and there's no-one around to help you out. Both the former should be possibilities in XCOM - but I understand how it would be difficult to code and unpopular with today's 2-second attention span consumer to boot. No-one likes pulling the trigger and hearing "Click!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oathbreaker View Post
    I did 10+ years in the military and never heard of someone who emptied their rifle magazine and pulled a pistol rather than reload their rifle. Then again I don't know everything.

    Sidearms are there for when you lose your rifle (you probably got blown up by an IED or RPG) or the rifle breaks or you're so deep up ☺☺☺☺ creek that you run out of ammo and there's no-one around to help you out. Both the former should be possibilities in XCOM - but I understand how it would be difficult to code and unpopular with today's 2-second attention span consumer to boot. No-one likes pulling the trigger and hearing "Click!"
    You've obviously never played MW then where it's magically faster to pull your sidearm than to do a quick reload of your rifle. I mean MW is based on real life right???

    But yea the only reasons I would pull a sidearm are either because I'm not carrying a rifle (at home, OC/CCing, aka not at war), it's all that is given to me (not all flyers get rifles), or because my rifle is inop for some reason. Using crappy military training gear I can still reload an M16 in under 3 seconds, and if I had the proper gear and could practice at home I'm sure I could get that to under 2 seconds. Now my AUG takes a bit longer, but it's a bullpup design where the mag doesn't simply fall out when the mag release is pushed and I don't have proper gear (proper gear being a vest to hold the mags for easiest accessibility), but even my AUG only takes roughly 3-4 seconds to reload.

    So many games are unrealistic in how long it takes to reload a handgun/rifle compared to a RL person who has actually trained how to reload the weapon.

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    Realistically, there is very little reason to have sidearms at all in a military setting.
    When it's room-clearing time and you give your soldiers a choice between rifle+pistol or an AR carbine / SMG, I think you're going to keep all those pistols.

    It's always a major headache to come up with gameplay justifications for having pistols.
    Their main advantages are weight and concealability, both essentially non-issues in a military setting. That leaves you with a weak weapon with short range and small ammo capacity. Hard sale.

    In PnP RPGs it's a lot easier to make handguns matter. Smuggling the necessary weapons into the target building can be a major event in a Shadowrun plot.

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    Listen, in my 7+yr real life experience, when I find myself being deployed to an alien hotspot, I find my pistol quite handy. My real life mind control abilities haven't yet been developed fully, but I attribute that to the CIA PsyOps budget cuts by the president.

    Remind me again about why we are talking real life and Xcom in the same sentence?

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    I guess because the releae date is far away and we have nothing better to do.

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    HAHAHA Gazz, so true.

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    You don't get to reload your rifle for free, so there will be times when you have to decide if it's better to switch weapons and fire asap. Has anyone heard if reloading is a move action or a shoot action?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oathbreaker View Post
    I did 10+ years in the military and never heard of someone who emptied their rifle magazine and pulled a pistol rather than reload their rifle. Then again I don't know everything.

    Sidearms are there for when you lose your rifle (you probably got blown up by an IED or RPG) or the rifle breaks or you're so deep up ☺☺☺☺ creek that you run out of ammo and there's no-one around to help you out. Both the former should be possibilities in XCOM - but I understand how it would be difficult to code and unpopular with today's 2-second attention span consumer to boot. No-one likes pulling the trigger and hearing "Click!"
    So the pistol gets used only if the main weapon gets jammed or something. That makes sense.
    Since you have real military experience do you think something like this would sound strange in the game?-
    -You can run farther with a pistol and still make a snapshot than you would with a rifle.
    After all the pistol is lighter, you get one free arm for balancing when you're running and it might be faster to bring into firing position.

    Does that make any sense?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShredZ View Post
    You don't get to reload your rifle for free, so there will be times when you have to decide if it's better to switch weapons and fire asap. Has anyone heard if reloading is a move action or a shoot action?
    Im pretty sure it should be a shoot action... I would hope.. otherwise, that would make reloading a non-issue, as it would only suck up a move, with no decrease in your fire rate.

    Question is if it sucks up BOTH move and action..

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    Quote Originally Posted by katscan View Post
    Im pretty sure it should be a shoot action... I would hope.. otherwise, that would make reloading a non-issue, as it would only suck up a move, with no decrease in your fire rate.

    Question is if it sucks up BOTH move and action..
    I'm pretty sure I've heard it presented as a full turn action, though I can't recall where. May have just been some speculation I've heard around the forums.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spleenslitta View Post
    So the pistol gets used only if the main weapon gets jammed or something. That makes sense.
    Since you have real military experience do you think something like this would sound strange in the game?-
    -You can run farther with a pistol and still make a snapshot than you would with a rifle.
    After all the pistol is lighter, you get one free arm for balancing when you're running and it might be faster to bring into firing position.

    Does that make any sense?
    I'm not an expert by a long stretch, you need to talk to Marines or Army people (or teamguys/parajumpers) with Iraq/A**crackistan experience).

    In five seconds you can run about as far with a rifle as you would have with a pistol. Try it yourself. Look up the weights of the M4 and the average 9mm pistol on Wikipedia, then take a broom handle or baseball bat, load it with weight (duct tape it) and sprint for 5 seconds - then try again with something similar to a pistol.

    A properly trained Marine or Army soldier will always make a more accurate rifle shot or 3-shot burst than with a pistol, unless it's such close quarters you're actually grappling with the enemy. No serious military professional is going to bring a pistol to a rifle-fight. It's a last-ditch resort. Shotguns are useful though - 1 per squad for the houses.

    The only people who depend on pistols are LEOs, and we're continually outgunned and the bad guys get the drop on us and we're expected to go into an active-shooter situation with pistols against who-knows-what (MP5, long rifle, multiple weapons) - BECAUSE PEOPLE GET SCARED IF THEY SEE COPS WALK AROUND WITH SUBMACHINE GUNS.

    Then again, Bradley Kasal. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bradley_Kasal
    http://media.npr.org/programs/mornin...asal_large.jpg
    In a fire fight in a house in Fallujah, although wounded by seven 7.62x39mm AK-47 rounds and hit by more than 43 pieces of hot fragmentation from a grenade while using his body to shield an injured fellow Marine, Kasal refused to quit fighting and is credited with saving the lives of several Marines during the U.S. assault on insurgent strongholds in Fallujah in November 2004.

    By the time he was carried out of the house by LCpl Chris Marquez and LCpl Dane Shaffer, Kasal had lost approximately 60 percent of his blood.[1] The photograph of Kasal, taken by photographer Lucian Read — blood-soaked and still holding his M9 pistol and KA-Bar fighting knife — being helped from the building by fellow Marines, has become one of the iconic pictures of the war.[2]

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    A bit off topic but 60% bloodloss is an outright lie. The man is even conscious in that picture. He'd have been long dead with 60% blood loss.

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    Wow a full round to reload? Maybe that's just with the machine gun!

    I was thinking, maybe if a melee alien is attacking you, you can't use a rifle at extremely close range and would thus have to switch to pistol ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShredZ View Post
    Wow a full round to reload? Maybe that's just with the machine gun!

    I was thinking, maybe if a melee alien is attacking you, you can't use a rifle at extremely close range and would thus have to switch to pistol ?
    Turn, point rifle at bad guy, pull trigger. Or kick in face/chest, then see previous. Or ...make decision to switch weapons, drop rifle, move hand to waist or leg and don't get tangled in crap on the way, grab pistol, undo holster, draw, point and shoot. What sounds faster?

    Again - a pistol is a last ditch thing for when you lose your rifle, you're out of ammo (you're f***ed), it's jammed beyond repair (nearly never) or you're a staff officer/person-other-than-grunt (POG)/typewriter specialist/dolphin trainer/aircrew/pilot/undercover agent/police/criminal investigator and simply don't need a rifle, ever. Ever. Ever ever ever. Those people don't go into combat unless they get shot down/ambushed/have their cover blown.

    Quote Originally Posted by Being View Post
    A bit off topic but 60% bloodloss is an outright lie. The man is even conscious in that picture. He'd have been long dead with 60% blood loss.
    My first thought, too. Or you can read it as if the writer meant "60% of what he could lose without dying." Oh well. It's war, that's what happens to information. It gets garblegoadsafasdfasdofasdoggoooooooooo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spleenslitta View Post
    So the pistol gets used only if the main weapon gets jammed or something. That makes sense.
    Since you have real military experience do you think something like this would sound strange in the game?-
    -You can run farther with a pistol and still make a snapshot than you would with a rifle.
    After all the pistol is lighter, you get one free arm for balancing when you're running and it might be faster to bring into firing position.

    Does that make any sense?
    If anything, running with your pistol out while having a rifle on you is going to make you run slower IRL. The reason is because of how the rifle is secured to your body compared to the pistol. A pistol is in a holster and held close, while a rifle is going to use some type of sling and thus is going to have some movement. Also running with a rifle and then acquiring a target is typically going to be easier/faster than with a pistol. The reason is because combat sights for a rifle (talking about things like ACOGs, Red Dots, Holographics, etc) are naturally designed for fast acquisition of a target and because when you put the butt-stock into your shoulder that naturally helps to align your gun; compared to a pistol that typically has a V sight setup and requires you to do all of the work in regards to lining up the shot (a pistol doesn't have a long stiff frame to naturally straighten out your aim like a rifle does). Also don't forget that when running with a rifle you can still take a hand off of the gun to steady yourself if needed, and as pointed out the weight difference isn't really going to matter much. My AUG is only like 5-6 pounds heavier than my XDm-40 which isn't really going to matter (plus as I said before, it isn't like you are putting down your rifle when you have your pistol out, you're still carrying that rifle with you).

    Quote Originally Posted by Oathbreaker View Post
    The only people who depend on pistols are LEOs, and we're continually outgunned and the bad guys get the drop on us and we're expected to go into an active-shooter situation with pistols against who-knows-what (MP5, long rifle, multiple weapons) - BECAUSE PEOPLE GET SCARED IF THEY SEE COPS WALK AROUND WITH SUBMACHINE GUNS.
    Cops regularly walking around with things like SMGs is something all citizens should be scared of. Things like that are what lead a country down the police state road. Also it is EXTREMELY rare for things like SMGs to actually be needed. But I'm also against 99% of the no-knock/short-knock warrants. The cops typically know these people's lives well enough that if they are so dangerous they could easily roll them up after they leave their house or simply execute a regular search warrant. And if the people that they are trying to search are able to destroy all evidence in 2-3 minutes then they aren't really such a risk to society that we need heavily armed police taking them down. Instead these tactics lead to needlessly risking the lives of civilians who get shot by over-zealous cops (especially when they accidentally raid the wrong house) and things are going to get worse now that more and more criminals are starting to do the "kick in door and shout 'POLICE' routine." I can tell you right now that if someone comes bursting through my door I am NOT going to be listening to what they say as I have no way to actually verify they are who they say they are. Now on certain VERY RARE occasions there is a need for SWAT weapons/tactics, but those situations are very rare.

    Sorry for the rant, but I really hate how militarized our police force is becoming, and hate it even more when people advocate for further militarization of the police force. Our citizens should NOT be treated like enemy combatants unless there is a rebellion (at which point the rebels would be combatants).

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    All of the cops in my USA city have an automatic rifle in the front of the squad car and a shotgun in the trunk. They just don't go on foot patrol with them.

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    I guess what it comes down to is this- Do the devs think realism or actionmovie style when they chose to have sidearms.
    Maybe explosions can damage weapons or maybe psionics can be used to jam weapons temporarily.

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    Unless pistols have a unique ability (however gamey), I could see them as being placeholders until you research the Backup Weapon perk, allowing your soldiers to carry 2 "real" weapons instead.

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