Eh, ITZ is broken endgame. Ghost armor scout with a squad sight ITZ behind will kill most things easily. Enemies aren't in cover when detected so you get the critical bonus. 100% accuracy and 85% crit chance w/o using headshot means even Muton Elites go down in one hit. It also allows you to pick off annoying trash like drones and heavy floaters. No, Double Tap is good, but ITZ is broken.
ITZ saved our squad at the alien base assault last night. We were in a fire-fight with 3 Mutons, 2 were killed and one has 1 health left so I decided to capture him; as moved my support guy closer to him - and to my horror - 2 heavy floaters, 2 drones and a Muton berserker were behind the fog.
I thought to myself that this going to be a wipe; at this point I have ITZ sniper, assault and support who hasn't finish their turn.
I successfully captured the Muton. My ITZ sniper took out 2 h.floaters & drones but only managed to take half-health off the Berserker; my assault flanked him and finished him off with the shotgun in the back of its head.
It was a lucky escape and it was pretty tense - this is why I love XCOM.
You people play easy. On impossible sniper with high ground perk gets 65% accuracy vs exposed elite mutons.
It is so annoying the way people throw the expression "broken" around. Why is it broken? It is a game. In end game I WANT my soldiers to kick some a**.
Originally Posted by Path
Screenshot with F1 please? I'm not aware of muton elites getting a 50-60% defense bonus on any difficulty. According to the .ini files he should only have +10 defense over Normal, same as Classic which I played on.
Originally Posted by ruonim
Because it makes the game trivial. A game shouldn't get easier towards the end. As it stands now, the first part of the game is much harder than the second half if you take care of the strategic portion.
Originally Posted by Grenadebiter
Rubbish. Muton Elites have a base defence of 20 and a modifier of 10 on impossible. Even if the classic modifier is added on top of that, which I doubt, you wouldn't be seeing such numbers. A sniper colonel with a scope, DGG and an elevated position should never go below 100% accuracy against an exposed Elite.
Originally Posted by ruonim
He may have seen it, but only if the Elite was too close to the sniper. Blaming it on the difficulty is just silly.
Originally Posted by Path
I wouldn't know cause my two double tap snipers who can instakill a sectopod can do the same to Muton elites, Ethereals, Cyberdisks, etc. >.>
Originally Posted by TheMediator
I've played nothing but classic and impossible ironman and I think it's just as likely that someone is playing like ass if they need their sniper to kill six targets as it is if they need their sniper to kill any elite targets. It's a guaranteed 4 shots from my snipers every turn... if I need more shots then that, what the hell is the rest of my squad doing...
In the Zone is amazing, I've taken out whole squads of aliens with it. I have to hold back when I'm trying to level up other soldiers.
This is what good game balance does.
Originally Posted by Telkanes
People can't bloody agree on which of those abilities is best. =P
Personally I always went with DT because snipers are tricky enough to set up without adding more required conditions.
It also allowed be to use Rapid Fire. Pumping shotgun blasts into their face never gets old.
ITZ and cleaning up terror missions sounds great but it requires vast quantities of LOS and/or high ground. I rarely find that so I tend to go with assaults/heavies, maybe a SHIV when I have one.
Damn you. Now I want an ITZ sniper.
DT has a CD. You can't use it every turn, so it's not actually two shots a turn.
Originally Posted by Tryphikik
The Original X-Com was MUCH easier in the end as well. Selective memory????
Anyways, In the zone is probably the strongest perk in the game. Have killed 6 aliens in one turn with it....
Same as me. One sniper has ITZ who gets overwatch at the beginning of the round (to shot aliens when spoted), the other has DT and the ability to shot after moving.
Originally Posted by Hamsterminator
ITZ just doesn't work for me. Honestly I can count on one hand the number of times my sniper had a shot of an alien who wasn't under cover. They always go to cover. I don't see how ITZ is useful at all. I much prefer getting two shots.
This is why you put your sniper on overwatch before you trigger the aliens and of course the archangel armour helps to get the LoS.
Originally Posted by LeBurns
You haven't read the thread?
Originally Posted by LeBurns
Many aliens cannot take cover. All the robots. Chryssalids. Zombies. Berserkers. Airborne Floaters and Heavy Floaters (technically they can take cover while airborne, but almost never do, I saw it once).
Additionally you can destroy cover with explosives, also weakening tougher enemies that you can level large groups of muton (elites) in one turn by firing a [shredder] rocket and following up with your sniper, ending with him in overwatch.
6 shots when it counts > 2 shots every other turn.
I prefer to get ITZ first, my backup sniper might get Double Tap. Due to the Overwatch turn-saving mechanic/bug ITZ can often give you a double-tap the turn after you overwatch anyway. If you go snapshot then ITZ is an excellent choice because you can flank an enemy and still shoot in the same turn. But the best is saved for ghost armor + ITZ. Cloak, grapple past the enemy to a ledge, take your free critical from flanking, repeat as necessary, end the round cloaked if anyone shows their face.
And an ITZ sniper can absolutely end those thinmen drop-ins. They're all unmoving and out of cover + they'll never survive.
I'm in my third playthrough and I've used both DT and ITZ. For me ITZ is far more powerful and is only limited to the amount of ammo you have at anyone time. You could take 5 shots with a full load. Sectopods are hardly ever in cover and the same with berserkers. They don't stand a chance.
I just keep thinking of all the times that things don't just work out perfectly and I would get only one shot with ITZ. Besides I'm having a problem now with my Snipers getting more than half the kills and thus experience. Once they get to Colonel I bench them for special missions since it's just a waste of experience to have them do any killing at that point.
The situation works out because you can make it work out.
I prefer having 2 guaranteed shot actions over a chance at more if the timing is right. That's all I have to say.
This is true, but very rarely do you need back to back turns of EITHER ability. You say ITZ is broken, but I didn't even use it and I still feel snipers are "broken" late game.. If you have two snipers with enough vision to get 4 shots late game with plasma, there isn't gonna be a second BIG turn, the second turn if it even exists is easy clean up before progressing deeper into the level. At least that was generally my experience. Late game everyone is so good, you don't get in the crazy shoot outs like you do early.
Originally Posted by Path
Last edited by Tryphikik; 10-16-2012 at 10:37 AM.
Double Tap has saved my squad from certain death so many times, now that i have plasma sniper with S.C.O.P.E. its over with! I have never gotten less than 85% chance to hit, i have taken out two muton elites with full health thanks to double tap
No idea how IN THE ZONE works sorry
Double tap is a good skill. It provides your sniper w/1 round of guaranteed 2 primary shots. That being said, I believe that ITZ is vastly superior. ITZ will allow you repeated shots (assuming a kill) vs ALL flying units, units that are not yet aware of your presence (hooray for cloak/squad sight) and any enemy that is not behind cover. With a smidge of tactical sense, you can regularly mop up and/or clean out as many enemies as you have shots in a clip. While you will not be able to utilize this ability on demand, as is the case w/double tap (after the cooldown, of course) The potential for this skill to decimate the enemy is unmatched.
The fact that this discussion exists, and has many valuable arguments for both side, only means both options are "teh r0xx0r"!
I have always prefered DT for the simple reason that using your DT sniper is an guaranteed kill on anything you really want to kill.e.g.sectopods, mechtoids, berserkers. And in the worst case if you can't guarantee a kill on your second shot you can use disabling shot to nullify the danger.
ITZ seems an easy choice vs enemies that don't use cover but you can't always guarantee a 1 shot kill from just the sniper so you still need to use squad mates to soften it up which seems to defeat the point against large HP enemies...i can use 1 person to kill a high HP enemy or 2 or even 3 people considering the high damage of the sniper rifle over standard weapons.
Against large packs of lesser enemies, well if you encounter a large pack of lesser enemies your doing something wrong anyway, but beyond that point for it to be of any use you need to use your squad mates to destroy their cover still for it to work so their seems little advantage over DT unless your lucky enough for them to group up into a big group where a rocket from your heavy would do the trick just as well.
ITZ to me seems like it can be very powerful in the right situation but when you start getting into higher difficulties in particularly you start to realise that the choice is really either gamble that your ITZ sniper will be in an immensely overpowered position and wipe the whole map for you but also may just end up being almost useless or having a DT sniper which is a lot more controlled and reliable.
I have always found that taking or using a highly specialised ability when you have limited resources in particular is more of a liability than an advantage no matter how generally OP it is because at some point it's going to let you down and when it lets you down is often when you could have done with it the most.
That is much the same reason i don't use shot guns and always equip my assault with assault rifles, yes shot guns can be immensely OP but only in the right situation and to get into that situation you often have to expose your self or at least risk exposing yourself.i.e. triggering a second or even 3rd pack for example which will at least likely kill your assault and in the worst case, especially in the early game, can easily result in a squad wipe.
9/10 times that assault can get into a position for that killing shot without the need to expose itself or the rest of the squad by activating more packs, probably 2/10 times they can run in with a shot gun and guarantee not to expose itself or the rest of the team, maybe as high as 7/10 times, if you know the maps well and it is a urban/large ufo map and thus lots of restricted viewpoints, you can move in with a fair certainty your not exposing the assault or the rest of the team. That would drop back down again to about 2/10 on open forest style maps which wouldn't be such an issue if you new what style of map you were getting before you actually launched the assault.
Overall though it depends on the person and their style of play, i believe in being generous with my ammunition and stingy with men squaddies lives.
This thread is interesting. Having played with ITZ to start with, and then switched to DT and found it much better, I am surprised there are folks who find ITZ to be better for them. So I decided to think through the situations logically:
DT is better when:
If your sniper misses their first shot.
If your sniper hits but does not kill on their first shot.
They are equal when:
If your sniper kills on the first shot when there is only one or two aliens visible .
If your sniper kills on the first shot and misses on the second shot when there are 3+ aliens visible.
If your sniper kills on the first shot and hits but does not kill on the second shot when there are 3+ aliens visible.
ITZ is better when:
If your sniper kills on the first shot and kills again on the second shot when there are 3+ aliens visible.
There are clearly many circumstances where they are of equal value. However, there are definitely some occasions when DT is better, and some others when ITZ is better. The real question is, what is the relative frenquency of these two sets of circumstances in real play (for ones own specific playstyle)?
I have only had three full play-throughs of EU (on Normal, Classic and Impossible respectively), but from the experience I have had so far, the situations where DT is better occur an order of magnitude more often than the situations where ITZ is better.
I frequently have the situation where a sniper does *not* kill an alien outright on the first shot. Basically, whenever I have to shoot at a full health (or close to it) sectopod, ethereal, or even cyberdisk, elite muton or heavy floater, I will not kill on that shot. Saying "shoot something else" is not always the best choice, and may end up with the mission in tatters when that sectopod simply has to die this turn and there are no others capable of doing the job.
On the other hand, I almost never end up killing two aliens with the snipers two shots and wishing I had ITZ for the third shot option. When I had ITZ, I only recall two times where I actually shot three or more times (both on terror missions with lots of chryssalids). Yes, I have read the thread, but the circumstances people describe where it makes the sniper a killing machine are extremely rare, I find, whereas the times I do not kill on the first shot are very common.
So for me, I will be sticking with DT.
Last edited by Feanturi; 02-14-2014 at 08:43 AM.
I usually try to run 2 snipers one with each. They are high great perks.
ITZ is great to drop drones and then still put some damage on a sectopod. And u no longer need to worry about it being healed or wasting other squad shots on the drones. Also combined with some good tactics can be great but is a little more situational.
With that said I generally take DT for my first sniper just for the guaranteed two shots.
Squad-sight ITZ is significantly weakened in EW due to the Squad-sight no critical nerf. In EU the plasma sniper can kill a 10hp muton (not yet activated) all the time due to the 95% critical chance. Now you must use headshot or it will usually do 8 or 9 damage and not triggering ITZ. In EW late game ITZ is good for cleaning up Drones and Chryssalids, but I prefer DT now in most cases.
I've used both extensively over 850 hrs of play and for me ITZ is ridiculously powerful, even with the squadsight nerf.
An ITZ sniper should always be used last in any turn if your using it properly, as late game the rest of the team should be geared towards weakening and removing cover so that the ITZ sniper (with ammo conservation) can finish them off.
DT is great if you have just three aliens activated, but it ain't much good if you have 8 or more. It wont save your bacon.
I'm with Rustilin. ITZ is crazy powerful and saying it's too situational is kinda admitting that you don't know how to utilize it effectively. Believe me, I was devoted to DT until recently because I never wanted to take the chance on ITZ, but now that I have I'll never use DT again. ITZ is funner to utilize and more powerful.
I've also noticed the amount of people playing Squadsight with ITZ, that would be the first mistake. It's hard to get flanking if you're half a map away. Mobility and explosives are key with ITZ.
Also I don't think it's been mentioned that ITZ also comes with the benefit of not having to take a shot. It can be used to hunker or reload after a killing spree, or heck, with snap shot you can run out of cover take a flanking shot then return to cover. It's so very amusing to do this.
I've never used snap shot and I may have to try that, just have a hard time taking an aim penalty. Especially early in the game when it seems like aim is poor already.
I have always used it with squad sight and agree that it's pretty sweet to empty a clip dropping foes and then get to reload all in one turn.
I prefer double tap on my 1 sniper. Being able to combine shots with disabling shot has got me out of trouble many times. I also like the guaranteed 2 shots.
ITZ makes a grenade deadly.
squad member tosses grenade, alien loses cover, sniper takes him out.
rinse and repeat.
I have made a similar analysis during my last ITZ playthrough. I think Yours analyse underestimates ITZ power.
Originally Posted by Feanturi
Such analys schould always take into account effectivnes of whole squad, never of sniper alone.
Imagine a pair. A two man squad of a heavy and a sniper. The heavy might still have heavy laser, but heavy plasma does not change too much. We will analyse pair effectiveness depending weather sniper has ITZ or DT.
Such pair has a group o aliens to defeat - mutons and/or elite mutons and/or heavy floaters. Anything else doesn't matter for stronger aliens would require help from other squad members to be defeated, and weaker once can be just blown with a rocket.
If sniper has DT, then in normal circumstances such pair can reliably kill up to three aliens. Heavies have poor aim and even muton can survive a hit from heavy plasma, so he is very unlikely to kill more then one - i assume he has bullet swarm ( if he had holo-targeter he is unlikely to kill even one alien). Then DT sniper shoots twice and kills two aliens, unless he is unlucky and kills just one. The pair can kill with reasonable reliability 3 aliens. It can kill no more then 4 but that would require a huge luck. It can also kill just one ( which is possible), or none with extremely bad luck.
If the pair contained ITZ sniper, the aliens are as good as dead. The heavy blasts the cover - possibly with help of Danger Zone, and preferably with shredder rocket. Then with cover gone, the sniper can proceed to slaughter the aliens - the chances of miss are negligible. Such pair not only can kill 3 aliens much more reliably. In can kill reliably 4 if there is that many are in the cover. It can also reliably kill 5 or more aliens, something heavy and DT sniper pair is simply not capable of.
People pick DT over INZ out of pure laziness. It requires less clicking, less switching between squadmates and less thinking. Many arguments for DT is that "i prefer my sniper to just kill his target, and the rest of the team go for theirs". The problem is this is much less effective, as shown in the analysis above. Teamwork tactic of blown cover + ITZ is not only more effective in similar situations, it can accomplish feats not possible with DT sniper and everyone else just shooting at a target. And not necessarily WTF?! feats of sniper annihilating a whole army. Which pair such as described can do too.
I'm guessing we're only talking about Impossible difficulty, right? If so, DT is better imo. Just for the fact that you will miss at times even with 90% and you will not kill the enemies at times when they only have like 7hp left. I haven't really encountered many situations where I wished I had taken ITZ instead of DT. I've been so glad I've taken DT those critical times when I need to do dmg and the first shot is a miss.
At the end of the day an ITZ sniper requires a different play style to a DT sniper. To use ITZ effectively, the team must be set up to maximise the opportunites for the sniper. So ITZ is really dependent on the team. Thats the key. If you using an ITZ sniper with less then 100% aim on an alien with more then 9 hit points, then your missing the point entirely. You're better off using a DT sniper in that case.
I never saw the point in ITZ. Give me an assault with close and personal instead and I'll keep my DT snipers.
Basically what he said... ITZ is at worst equal to DT. At best, it is far superior.
Originally Posted by M.M
The only time where I see that ITZ would work less well, would be in alien ships, where the cover is indestructible. That map where you start off at the end of the supply Ship is a prime example of this. There is a lot of high cover on the walls that simply cannot be destroyed. Althougth DT offers an extra shot, I don't really see
Also, DT has a cooldown, but I think everyone knows this.
an ITZ sniper on base defence wrecks. No problem.
XCOM is about team synergy. ITZ offers oppurtunities/a bug out option/free kills more often than it is useless. It is always free and active. It is not a one on one fight with a sniper. (That being said a lone sniper loses effectiveness anyway.) ITZ is about the team. DT is only about the single sniper doing damage on a single target. ITZ is also about efficiency and team tactics, and no other skill can kill more effectively (when used right) than an ITZ sniper.
Yes of course the situation in game is for a team of 6 (or 4 or 5 perhaps), and the synergy matters. However, from purely the perspective of the two skills under discussion, it still comes down to which of these scenarios happens more often (taking into account every other character option and playstyle there is), whilst DT will give two shots when available:
Originally Posted by M.M
- 1: you have a sniper fail to kill on their first shot (with ITZ they get only 1 shot then)
- 2: you have a sniper successfully shoot and kill on both first and second shots (with ITZ they then get 3 or more shots).
You imply that for you, option 1 occurs rarely enough and option 2 occurs often enough (using your tactics), for you, for you to value ITZ over DT.
I respect your observation, it is just not my observation.
For me, I simply do not play by activating 3 or 4 pods of aliens at a time, and I cannot see why I would ever deliberately activate more than 1 pod (Getting 1 additional pod happens, but getting 2 extra is rather careless I suggest, or at least, very rare outside terror missions). [I am speaking of EU, I have never played EW to date so I cannot speak of that.]
I turtle forward slowly with two Assaults, and my two Squadsight/DT snipers are well back with good LOS if I can manage that, and pods open 1 or 2 at a time in almost all cases. If I get 2 pods, I use one of my heavy's precious rockets to do as much damage as possible. Then between the two DT snipers, the two run-and-gun + rapid fire Assaults and the Support, I try to kill both pods, or leave the least threatening thing still standing.
But the key thing is, for me, my snipers almost never be able to get two kills in two shots and get that third shot. I have tried it, it occurs very rarely in reality. For my playstyle anyway. No disrespect to anyone else. This is why, for me, I always have two Squadsight+DoubleTap snipers in my squads in the late game, and it serves me very well indeed.
I respect everything you and everyone says on this thread, except for this statement. It is a silly thing to say as it is just not giving respect to other players. Clearly those of us do who choose DT are not choosing so for "laziness". We choose it because we find it to be the stronger ability for us. After all, if we are winning the fights, our tactics can vary.
Originally Posted by M.M