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Thread: Why no Kongo, Italy, Sioux, Tannu Tuva etc

  1. #1
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    Why no Kongo, Italy, Sioux, Tannu Tuva etc

    This thread is for all discussion of civs that people think should be in the game - whether questioning their exclusion so far, or advocating for their inclusion in hypothetical future DLC or expansions.

    However, please remember the forum guidelines. In particular, this means this discussion should remain respectful, and avoid any sort of stereotyping (especially negative stereotypes) of any nation or peoples. Make your cases positively, not by insulting any other possible or actual in-game Civ. Concrete suggestions for gameplay are particularly welcome.

    All discussion of this sort should be confined to this thread only. Several recent threads on this sort of topic have been merged into this thread, so feel free to continue those discussions or start new ones in this thread.

    Discussion of the details of civs (leaders, UA, UU, UB, UI, colours) can take place, without reference to whether a civ should be in the game or not, in the "50+ Civilization Civ5" thread: http://forums.2kgames.com/showthread...t=civilization
    Last edited by SamBC; 03-18-2013 at 07:34 AM.

  2. #2
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    Austrian Empire BIG mistake

    The eagle in emblem is Polish symbol. Austria have black eagle.
    Austria-Hungary


    All Polish emblems


    And i think special unit Hussars better fits to Polish. They have their own Hussars cavalry (heavy cavalry) and it is most recognized (horseman with wings). From military aspekt it was the best cavalry in history of europe and world. In historical aspect Polish Hussars was fighting in Battle of Vienna and win it. The overall command was held by the Polish King Jan III Sobieski.

    "Sobieski Sending Message of Victory to the Pope" Jan Matejko (1838-1893)


    And Polish Hussars


    I think someone mistaken Polish with Austria and create this weird Austria.
    Last edited by SamBC; 11-26-2012 at 12:41 PM.

  3. #3
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    Many countries use eagles. The larger version of the Austrian eagle in-game is clearly the shape and pose of the Austrian eagle, not the polish one. The colour is because of the colours picked for the civ - every civ has exactly two colours, unique, picked to avoid confusion (though there are still some possible confusions). Austria is red and white - because that's the colours of the Austrian flag. They are used in the opposite configuration to the Japanese colours in game. The eagle is Austrian heraldry.

    Look at the American symbol in game - when did the US use blue and white stripes? All of the symbols are designed in monochrome, and rendered in the civ's in-game colours.

    Polish hussars had wings; Austrian ones didn't.

  4. #4
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    ^ What he said.
    But thanks for the cool info and art. That is always enjoyable.

  5. #5
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    We've had this thread before...

    http://forums.2kgames.com/showthread...h-coat-of-arms

    It ends with the same message SamBC has already stated; Eagles are a VERY common heraldic symbol in Europe, and the colors red and white are also extremely common world over. Austria happens to have both, and was put in the game first. There are a variety of other reasons why Austria was given the symbol it was, but this is the most basic reason behind the choice.

    Now, Civilization colors have been changed from expansion to expansion in past Civs. Maybe if Poland is included in an expansion, they'll change colors around to give them Red and White. It is what it is, however; Austria is in, Poland isn't.

  6. #6
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    Nice pics. So did hussars actually use rifles?

  7. #7
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    As said, it's the Austrian eagle mixed with the Austrian colours
    So no mistake.

    For Poland-Lithuania it would be more something like this:

  8. #8
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    Why's that one got a dead sheep or goat hanging off the bottom?

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by tfordp View Post
    Why's that one got a dead sheep or goat hanging off the bottom?
    Order of the Golden Fleece, I believe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by inquisitiveowl View Post
    Order of the Golden Fleece, I believe.
    Right, gotcha. Google is my friend.

    So the emblem anandus posted represents the Austrian Chapter eagle and not the Poland-Lithuanian one? Am I missing a punchline somewhere?

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by NTense View Post
    Nice pics. So did hussars actually use rifles?
    Where do you see Rifles?

    Why not just cut the head off of the Polish eagle and use it as an emblem. Tada! No confusion.

  12. #12
    Up until about the end of world war one the Austrian flag was black and yellow and had a double headed eagle.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Austrian_flags
    If they were available black and yellow would have been a better choice for Austrian colors.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by scgtbb View Post
    Up until about the end of world war one the Austrian flag was black and yellow and had a double headed eagle.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Austrian_flags
    If they were available black and yellow would have been a better choice for Austrian colors.
    What's wrong with using the colours of their current flag? Remember that they had to choose in context of the civs that were already in, plus those being added in G&K.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by PachaMinnie View Post
    Where do you see Rifles?

    Why not just cut the head off of the Polish eagle and use it as an emblem. Tada! No confusion.
    In the game doesn't the unit use some sort of firearm?

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    Brazilian Civ

    A non stereotypical suggestion for a Brazilian Civ, or mod:

    Empire of Brazil
    Dom Pedro II
    UA: Emperor's Tutelage: Libraries, Gardens, Temples provide +2 culture. Once all 3 are built in a city +25% territorial growth speed. This is support to reflect Dom Pedro II's intense relationship with cultural policy, as he often personally oversaw libraries, botanical gardens, scientific journals and institutions. Also a way to reflect Brazil's unique culture.
    UB: Engenho. Replaces plantation but my be built on jungle tiles without resources as well. +1 production and +1 faith. Engenhos were plantations worked by slaves, usually self sufficient, that had it's own community. Most had chapels as well, used to convert african or native slaves into catholicism, as the owners believed they would become harder workers and less likely to rebel. This created the unique blend of cultures known to Brazil.
    UU: Bandeirante. Replaces the Musketman. He can set up a flag in one of your cities. As he kills units he receives +1 to border expansion in the city where the flag is set up and +3 if the unit killed was a barbarian, +1 faith as well. No movement or combat penalty in jungle tiles. This is to reflect the bandeirantes, or "flaggers". Gunpowder wielding explorers who used native american knowledge to travel and survive in the countryside, searching for valuable resources, or to enslave native indians. They often founded small camps, which grew into villages and towns, and effectively pushed Brazil's borders way west.

    This build is to create an interaction between culture, faith as well as to provide a unique starting location for brazil, along the coast but next to jungle as well. Victory types culture and diplomacy, you should be able to expand your empire without making too many enemies, as the military is pretty average. Although social policies can be used to make it deadly. The interesting part would be to use religion and culture to create a powerful military, or to persue more peaceful goals. Even with fewer cities territorial expansion should come fast. Criticize it please.

  16. #16
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    That is entirely too much culture in my opinion. There would be little point in playing anyone else.

    In fact, all of those abilities are pretty incredible. I think this would make every other civ obsolete.

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    Yeah. The entire UA needs to be scaled back if not reworked. +2 culture on 3 pretty cheap buildings is way too strong.

    I think it would be interesting to have a CIV that can get production out of jungle tiles, so I like the idea of the UI (it should be a UI, not a UB). You'd have to watch the balance, though. If it's simply 1 production and 1 faith on top of the standard 2 food tile, that's fine. It seems odd that a plantation type building doesn't give gold or food, but if it did it would again be over-powered.

    I'm not sure about the flagging part of the UU. They would have to create a new action for just this unit, which seems unlikely to me.

    Over-all, I like theme of the CIV and there's some creativity here. There's just some balance issues.

  18. #18
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    Hey, thanks alot on the feedback! Well i wanted this theme, but i guess i kind of suck on the power scaling? I wanted to reflect a territorial growth without using armies, more like a slow progressive expansion. So through culture, like the krepost for russians. I think the engenho feature does not work well, it's a stretch to give a brazilian civ a bonus on production. So reworking it:

    UA: Universities and Gardens may be purchased with faith. (double the production cost, with faith).
    UB: Paróquia: Replaces the temple. +1 culture, 25% expansion growth rate. (Like the Krepost but with temples).
    UU: I'd like to keep the bandeirante original design, i think they have designed unique features before, i don't think programming this is too hard. But if i had to change it:
    Bandeirante: Replaces the Musketman. Attack and defense bonus in jungle or forest tiles, no movement penalty. May be purchased with faith.
    I think fighting brazil in jungles or forests should be harder then a standard civilization. I like faith as a resource for other things then missionaries and such. It reflects well on how the catholic church was part of the official government until 1889. (almost 400 years), and how it maintained some public services (universities, orphanages, graveyards some other stuff). Unique unit here is very boring without the special ability i think.

  19. #19
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    The first document about Hussars date back to 1432, which is a document about the Hungarian Kingdom using irregular light cavalry, so hussar wasn't originally polish nor Austrian, it was supposedly Hungarian.

  20. #20
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    Even England/the UK had Hussars from the late 17th century.

  21. #21
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    Portuguese Empire

    So, tell me, because this has bothered me a bit, we all know theres a spanish empire now with gods and kings, but, why is there no portuguese empire? its not like we didnt do anything important and didnt have one of the biggest empires in history, so do clear this up for me, why no portuguese?

  22. #22
    Not every civ/empire can appear in every iteration of this game. Portugal was in Civ 4 (if my memory serves me right), just unlucky this time, I guess.

  23. #23
    I think it will be added as a DLC or in a second expansion. After all, portuguese started the age of discovery (with prince Henry) discovered half of the world, brought spices to Europe without reliying on arabian merchants and traders, ... Portuguese became, at that time, became the working language of most of the world. Portuguese and spanish ways of colonizing were very different, as portuguese only installed trading posts (feitorias) (although they're not THAT innocent, since theysold many black slaves and those who didn't want to trade were forced to), while spanish, with America, made simple and pure conquest of the territory. It's the portuguese golden age, and we could say, at the very least, it had a critic impact on the world. Unfortunately now, Portugal, and since a long time, is considered as a little weak country, often thought by many people in the world as spanish province, or at least its servant. It's sad to say (specially since I'm portuguese), but Portugal is considered as the little in the corner of Europe. And besides, about the age of discoveries, in history lessons in college, history teachers don't really care about Portugal and only focus on the discovery of America with Colombus, and its conquest by Cortes and Pizarro (and I know what I'm saying since I live in Belgium). All these factors tend people to think "Why Portugal ? It's the same than Spain !" or even "Portugal is too close from Spain ! Their gameplay would exactly the same !". The truth is, us, portuguese, are totally overshadowed by Spain" (I'm not accusing Spain of anything, just to make it clear). And on a side note, it's greatly because of the portuguese governement, which had absolutely nothing to promote the country abroad, except on the expo in 1998 and in the euro in 2004. These two events were achieved greatly, yet there are still politicians who only keep on saying "those were stupid wastes of money, blablabla, we're still paying for it, blablabla, ..." But that is a whole other matter I do not wish to discuss.

  24. #24
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    While the original ideas were a bit OP, the conversation has given me an idea:

    UA: +1 faith from *unimproved jungle tiles (like the Celt forest ability) that are being worked, and +25% border growth
    UI: Engenho. +1 production, can only be built in jungle (does not remove the jungle). Maybe have it give +1 gold with economics, or have it give gold but no later increase. Depends on what tech is required to build it. The player would have to decide between working unimproved jungles for faith from the UA, or getting that production.
    UU: Bandeirante. Musketman replacement, same abilities as Mohawk (but jungle instead of forest). Or mirror the Jaguar, but faith gain instead of culture, and purchaseable with faith. Coming late (as a MM replacement) the faith shouldn't be OP.

  25. #25
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    Odds are high it will be added still

    I say 97.5% it still comes out. Question is do they want to make another expansion (typical for the civ franchise, but you never know...) and if they don't want to, they will at least be a DLC as they are good money

  26. #26
    Good ideas for Brazil, I like the unique improvement idea that could be built on jungle tiles. Banderante would make a good UU too.
    I think Brazil should represent the economy and production of goods and also the religious side of them.
    I'm sure some of you know more about the culture and history of Brazil, but here's some of my ideas mixed with yours, I switched Engenho improvement to a building.


    Unique Ability: Community churches (got the name community church from some Brazil thread)
    For each Open borders –treaties Brazil gets extra culture.
    Brazilian cities get to use all the follower belief bonuses that are spread to them

    (meaning that a city might have the icons for both Christianity, Buddhism and Islam on it, and giving the Brazilian player the follower bonuses from each of them)

    Unique building: Engenho
    double yields from improvements on jungle tiles to a city that has this UB.

    Unique Unit: Banderante
    Replaces musketman,
    no rough terrain movement penalty,
    "enslavement" promotion: when defeating a barbarian unit there's a 30% chance it gives temporary production points to nearest city
    (kind of like getting the hammers from chopping woods)


    Here Brazil would benefit from diplomatic relations via Open borders and letting different religions spread into their lands. With a jungle starting bias their building would boost the growth of their cities.
    Banderante could be used barbarian hunting to get small hammer boosts.

  27. #27
    Portugal+Brazil double DLC pack would be sweet too.

    I think real history fans know their importance, they had even colony action as recently as 1960s(?) I think.

    They could be made a cool explorer/trade Civ. Here's some ideas, both mine and stolen from some other threads

    Unique Ability: Age of Discovery
    From each fog of war tile cleared, Portugal gets 1 gold.
    When settling a city into another continent or island than capital, city gets a free granary.

    Unique Unit: Carrack
    Replaces galleass.
    Can enter deep ocean tiles.
    Can conduct trade missions with City-states, this action removes the carrack.

    (trade missions like with great merchant but with less gold and infuence received)

    Unique Building: Feitoria
    Replaces castle.
    More gold when a city with Feitoria has a trade route with capital. Amount of trade route gold higher if the city is in another continent than capital.



    My Portugal would encourage players to start exploring right away, getting 1gold for each fog tile cleared. As Carrack replaces Galleass, Portugal can start exploring before others get Caravels. Their trade mission promotion lets them net small amount of gold and relationship points with city-states, but this action removes the Carrack.

    Their unique ability suggests colonizing distant continents, and Feitoria UB would make it a profitable choice, and also working as a castle to defend the colony.

  28. #28
    I'm not polish and I don't know their culture that well but here's some ideas:

    Unique Ability: The Commonwealth
    When Poland is at peace with all empires, all city-state influence lowers at slower rate.
    When a war is declared AGAINST Poland, all Allied-states gift units occasionally(not just military)


    Unique Unit: Winged lancer
    Replaces lancer
    'Bonus when attacking' promotion


    Unique Building: Fortress Synagogue
    Replaces castle
    Same defense bonuses as castle
    City generates one point of faith for each population. This ability turns off after player discovers Scientific theory



    This Poland would be a defensive oriented, with powerful military aids in when attacked.

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Tahitian Moon View Post
    I'm not polish and I don't know their culture that well but here's some ideas:

    Unique Ability: The Commonwealth
    When Poland is at peace with all empires, all city-state influence lowers at slower rate.
    When a war is declared AGAINST Poland, all Allied-states gift units occasionally(not just military)


    Unique Unit: Winged lancer
    Replaces lancer
    'Bonus when attacking' promotion


    Unique Building: Fortress Synagogue
    Replaces castle
    Same defense bonuses as castle
    City generates one point of faith for each population. This ability turns off after player discovers Scientific theory



    This Poland would be a defensive oriented, with powerful military aids in when attacked.
    Oh Look, it's THIS Thread again

    Polandball cannot into Civ

  30. #30
    Haha sorry yeah I know there's been a "few" Polish threads here, I just love to plan civ uniques and couldn't resist posting here..

  31. #31
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    A UB that could give multiple times as much faith as Stonehenge PER CITY?

    No disrespect but. Wow. It is hard to take your suggestion seriously.

  32. #32
    Yeeah.. I counted that it being a medieval building and being canceled after Scientific Theory, it would give it a short lifespan, but yeah maybe it could be like +3 faith for cities with population of five.

    Oh well it's really hard to force a Civ out of a nations and try to find the uniqueness, maybe some nations are best left at a city-state status?

  33. #33
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    I like the community churches thing, but it makes no sense for a 19th century brazil build, seeing as the catholic church was an official part of the government. It did administrative tasks, like birth and death records, naming records, maintained hospitals, universities and orphanages, organized community gatherings, and many crimes were judged by the catholic church (sodomy, or even working sundays in some cases). So if anything i think brazil should reinforce one religion instead of adopting many. But the open borders bonuses is pretty cool and the bandeirante looks nice too, although i prefer the original design.

    Anyway i think there should be a Brazilian civ, i mean i could go on and on on history and unique cultural values, but it think people pretty much agree it is long due for a brazilian civ. I play since civ II and since civ III i can't get why one wasn't made.

  34. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Tahitian Moon View Post
    Portugal+Brazil double DLC pack would be sweet too.

    I think real history fans know their importance, they had even colony action as recently as 1960s(?) I think.

    They could be made a cool explorer/trade Civ. Here's some ideas, both mine and stolen from some other threads

    Unique Ability: Age of Discovery
    From each fog of war tile cleared, Portugal gets 1 gold.
    When settling a city into another continent or island than capital, city gets a free granary.

    Unique Unit: Carrack
    Replaces galleass.
    Can enter deep ocean tiles.
    Can conduct trade missions with City-states, this action removes the carrack.

    (trade missions like with great merchant but with less gold and infuence received)

    Unique Building: Feitoria
    Replaces castle.
    More gold when a city with Feitoria has a trade route with capital. Amount of trade route gold higher if the city is in another continent than capital.



    My Portugal would encourage players to start exploring right away, getting 1gold for each fog tile cleared. As Carrack replaces Galleass, Portugal can start exploring before others get Caravels. Their trade mission promotion lets them net small amount of gold and relationship points with city-states, but this action removes the Carrack.

    Their unique ability suggests colonizing distant continents, and Feitoria UB would make it a profitable choice, and also working as a castle to defend the colony.
    I'd change some things in propositions, if don't you mind :

    - UA : Traders of the world : I agree on the 1 gold per tile, but not the second part. It could be + 50% of influence on a city state when donating gold.
    - UU : The fact of entering deep ocean tiles that early is powerful enough. But I would still add +1 move.
    - UB : Feitoria : Replaces not the castle, but harbor. would cost no gold to maintain, and would have the same effects than the harbor +1 gold per 2 tiles of water.

    That way, it would be a powerful economic force, and also being able to do a diplomatic victory easier thanks to the + 50% influence when donating.

    PS : The dominance in colonies were up to the 80's, because Salazar and the "Estado novo" did not want to let go Angola and Mozambique (mainly because of the gold, diamonds, etc. it provided), which led to colonial wars.

  35. #35
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    ...and oil. Halliburton / Kellog Brown & Root, am I right?

  36. #36
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    To recap the last few threads on this subject. Portugal did have a flash of prominence, and a lasting colonial impact. It would fit well as a civ. However, they added Spain which is far too similar. Not that they cant coexist, but DLC is a marketing decision and exciting differences draw sales.

    Your 1 gold per explored tile idea is problematic. It would be far too good in the ancient era, and even later its too much. Excluding water tiles might help.

    Early access to a ranged ship that could enter ocean doesn't sit right with me either. Replacing the caravel fits the timeline better, and keeps balance in check. Ranged units safely out on tiles where they cant be attacked isn't cool.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artifex View Post
    . However, they added Spain which is far too similar.
    Nonsense, sorry. In fact, this a subject that has been beaten to death.

  38. #38
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    Just as a bookend, please note that I have merged several threads on this sort of issue together here. Feel free to carry on the conversations and start new ones about 'missing' civs, in this thread. Any new threads on this sort of topic may be merged here, or just closed outright.

  39. #39
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    I presume that this is different from the 50+ Civilizations wanted topic, and both are allowed to operate?

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pouakai View Post
    I presume that this is different from the 50+ Civilizations wanted topic, and both are allowed to operate?
    Yes, that's a long-standing thread that, at least as I understand it, is focussed on completely open suggestion of gameplay elements (and discussion thereof). I haven't seen that thread for a while. We'd like to see the "include this civ because" discussion focussed here.

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