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Thread: [SPOILERS] BIG ending revelation - found something NEW here!

  1. #81
    Facts

    When you are at the "new" Lighthouse scene that we have never seen before in game with Elizabeth .

    She shows you 4 alternative Booker and Elizabeth walking like a reflection by pointing and saying "look, it's us"

    The Variables are as follows

    Bird & Cage
    Bandage & AD

    Whichever ever broach you chose for Elizabeth and weather you have the Bandage on your Hand or not this reflection she shows you at this point has a different ending and will be the polar opposite of whichever choice you have made.

    This means that an alternative Elizabeth decides to drown you without the Bandage... You could go as far to say Booker (Comstock) was warning her of this version earlier in the game with AD marking is the "false shepherd"

    Meaning that of all the 122 Booker's (Lutece count of booker's Coin Toss at the Raffle) 2 get through to the final stages of the game both the Booker with the Injured Hand and one that does not get his hand injured with AD make it this far (to the new lighthouse).

    And alternate Elizabeth's take you to be drowned and the Other 2 variations of Elizabeth well we don't know what happens in that reality because we have only been showed one alternative for the moment.

    only 1 of 2 versions of Booker get drowned at the end of the game.

    but the other 1 of those Booker's with the bandage is with both Elizabeth (cage) and Elizabeth (bird)

    That is actually strange maths but it's how it is calculated after 1 Booker is eliminated

    so that does not make 3 branches but only 1 possible branch left because Elizabeth is in Flux and does not count as she is both constant and a variable she cancels herself out in the equation even though she can show you the variable of the math at a total of 4 reflections at the "new" lighthouse after the execution it actually leaves only 1 possibile branch that is Booker with Bandage left with 2 versions of Elizabeth Bird and Cage
    Last edited by Ronster; 03-31-2013 at 02:33 PM.

  2. #82
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    No choice you make during the game matter. You can pick different paths to the lighthouse but like Elizabeth tells you that all lead to the same place.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by The Messenger View Post
    The missing broach and Booker not recognizing her suggests that it's not the same Elizabeth that he was paired with throughout the game. Maybe the multiple Elizabeths that drowned Booker came from the other realities? The same realities where the Luteces had already tried and failed to help Booker. As a result, Booker never destroys the siphon (possibly due to his demise) and their powers were never fully unlocked at their young age. But if their powers aren't unlocked, it's hard to determine how they made it to the final scene; maybe with the Luteces help. With the main Elizabeth's powers unlocked, maybe now she exists outside of all realities similar to the Luteces. The ending doesn't explain if the Luteces reverse their situation or are immune to changes in time and space so we can only hypothesize.

    One thing that boggles my mind is how drowning Booker stops the creation of Comstock. The memories seem to merge but we don't know for sure if the people do or don't. If they do merge, how does our Booker stay alive in a reality where he is already dead, Schrödinger's cat? And how are there multiple Elizabeths in the final scene? When Booker relives the past where he gave up Anna, he didn't have the AD brand so it's possible there is a "physical merger". Not to mention, the climax shows Comstock and Elizabeth acting like she is from the same reality even though she isn't. But the merging hypothesis contradicts both Booker, Comstock, and the Luteces existing as separate people in the same reality. So how does drowning our Booker in another's past stop Comstock from existing if ANOTHER Booker did or may still exist in said reality? Maybe because the Booker/Comstack and Robert/Rosalind Lutece realities are polar opposite to each other. But again the multiple Elizabeths seem to contradict a physical merger. Or maybe I'm just over-analyzing an illogical ending.

    Another explanation by a game designer and psychologist suggests that each player is allowed to make their own assumption with the ending. Ken Levine alluded to this due to there being an infinite number of realities in the game. So each player can decide what the eventual outcome is for themselves. The youtube video with his explanation is posted below.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKKAkrnT_o8
    Well, technically, according most people, when Booker is drowned before making the decision, he can not be baptized as Comstock, and therefor, any Comstock ceases to exist. The whole "merge" thing seems to be in play here - you bring up some very good points. Hopefully others can answer these too!

  4. #84
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    Played through it again and it still makes no sense to me at all.
    It's like there is 2 versions of a multiverse at the same time.
    1 is circular and 1 event replays itself until solution or 1 that runs paralell with all choices at the same time.
    Neither solves the event and removes the game really.

    If it's circular it should solve it right?

    We'll no. She's not drowning the booker that makes the choice. She's drowning a third booker. The mark on the hand? He's a "alien" in that scenario that makes his sacrifice pointless. Might be the primary scenario but by bringing him there it makes him not part of that scenario. That's just a created reality. Since drowning booker before the baptism pretty much kills all bookers and there is no body for him to "wake up" in.

    If it's parallell then again it's impossible to change even if you change the primary timeline(totally ignoring the fact that in a parallell there is no "primary" timeline). The other ones still run their course.
    You just create another primary event, you expand the possabilities really.
    All other timelines keep going. what you *do* create is another branch really but one where booker lives happily ever after with Anna.

    As I said before in the thread, for the game story to work out you have to presume that the spectator decides the universe really.
    Neither of the proposed scenario's work out to give us the solution with booker a the end otherwise.
    Last edited by Moncada; 04-01-2013 at 12:39 AM. Reason: Removed non working painting

  5. #85
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    I just think that it was a representation of the Bookers that chose to become Comstock. The drowning is Liz "cordoning" off that section of the multiverse. Kinda like on the beaches where there's a line of floaters saying "don't swim beyond this point." Some Bookers survive the drowning, some don't. ALL the Comstocks don't... or something.

    Also, in keeping with the theme of is and isn't. Maybe she both succeeded and failed to eliminate Comstock?

  6. #86
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    The whole post credits thing is not make any sense for me
    How the hell Booker live and remember everything from columbia after All booker/comstock died in the same water? i think that post credits thing just a Dream or similar nothing else.Baby Anna not even showed in post credits ending.

  7. #87
    We don't actually know that Booker remembered everything about what happened. The name he used when he opened the door to the other room was "Anna", not "Elizabeth". So, does this mean that he expected to see Anna in that room? Maybe. If he did expect to see Anna, then I'd guess he expected it to be Baby Anna: one survived child birth and that he did not sell to pay off a debt. Maybe this Booker thought the whole thing was a bad dream and was reassuring himself that yes, Anna was there and just fine.

    But those are all assumptions on our part. All we know is that there was a Booker Dewitt at the end, and that he was in his office in New York.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Declanmas12 View Post
    That could be from the universe Where Comstock has a child, Booker doesn't stop her or Her hand goes through the Tear all the way.
    So many variables not enough time.
    Yeah, but how was she then in this scene? Elizabeth gets her powers because her little finger is cut off. And in this scene she seems to be frightened about who we are, meaning that we did something terrible to her...like holding her in a tower

    But I have another theory about the baptism where Booker would become Comstock. What if everything is just symbolic. What if all these Elizabeths are just something like a force that will keep you under water at that branching point. The preacher who baptizes Booker is the same as in Columbia and he almost drowned him there. Also, he is blind, being a critical fact about his awareness if somebody's okay under water.
    So I think the preacher baptizes Booker and accidentally drowns him.

    What I love the most about this discussion is that we can't really be sure if our theories are true. I imagine Ken Levine reading all these posts and just thinking with a smile "You're SO wrong"


  9. #89
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    True, but throughout each reality shift in the game, both our character still seem to have their memories. Nothing seems to change from what they did in the past, only the new memories which combine with their old ones. Even when Booker was in the past going through the Baptism/Drowning, he could still remember who Comstock was. So it's possible that he does remember everything.

    The other thing is why would they send him back the day he lost Anna if she was still gone? He would have to live through those 20 years of regret all over again. Unless it's suggesting that is the begging of his loop all over again. And damn that would really be one hell of a crappy existence.

  10. #90
    The Mobius Theory

    The following is the Mobius Theory, as told by Zilith, a parai

    "So, you'd like to hear about my Mobius theory. That's all well and good I suppose... it'll put you closer to perfection if nothing else. Anyhow, a Mobius, as you more canny bloods'll know, is a band that though it appears to have two sides, it has only one. Here's my thoughts on the matter. The planes are a Mobius. A huge twist in the fabric of reality, brought to life through belief.

    "On the Mobius, on one theoretical edge, is the multiverse, and running parallel to it, on the other edge, is time - space on one side, time the other. Though a Mobius is, as I said, one sided, you can touch two opposite edges on it at once, each on opposite 'sides' of the loop. The Mobius' twist is chronomancy. Thus, while time and space run parallel to each other, in an infinite loop, they never actually intersect. This is explained by the fact that there are no known portals to the demiplane of Time, and the popular idea that history repeats itself.

    "There is the theory of the Moebius, a twist in the fabric of space,
    where time becomes a loop...." - 2P Hartnoll, Rogue Modron Composer

    "Confused? Well, I guess I wouldn't expect anything more from the likes of a Sigilian.. but I guess I should continue anyway.
    "Secondly, the philosophical realms and the material realms run parallel to each other on their own Mobius, and the twist is the Astral on one side, the Ethereal on the other. Here's how it works.

    "The prime, on one side of the Mobius, runs parallel to the planes without intersecting directly anywhere... the same way Time runs parallel to Space without there being a point of intersection. Now then, the prime is a place of material. The worlds' sizes are finite, and belief doesn't shape reality the way it does out here. The Ethereal plane, on the prime side of the twist, represents the gradual change to philosophy on the way to the Inner Planes. The Astral, opposite the Ethereal, represents the full transition from body to mind, and the Outer Planes run on the opposite side of the Mobius as the prime. This second Mobius, along with the first, creates my basis for the third.

    "So, to recap: the two previous loops are the Material and Philosophical, and the Time and Space. This third incorporates both, to finalize my theory, and again uphold the constant Rule of Threes.

    "The final Mobius on the planes is the parallelism of powers and mortals. They coexist with one another, but don't interact. It is supposed that powers can create and destroy with a whim, but can vanish with simple lack of belief. Time also supposedly flows differently for them, faster or slower, depending on their choosing. By this, the powers function on the opposite sides of the Mobius that we do. They function in the realms of time, but don't necessarily take up space, as they're belief incarnate. They are worshipped on the material realm, but function on the philosophical - the planes. They are immortal, and we aren't, and thus the rule of threes ties this together: on the third strip, we run parallel to the powers, but don't ever interact with them directly. Petitioners form the twist on this loop - in death we cross to their sides.

    "So, do you understand? No? I didn't think so... I knew you were imperfect from the start. Well, I suppose not all of us are..."

    I posted this for reference purposes as I think it is relevant below is a visulization of a mobius strip follow it's edges and you will loop round the outside and then the inside and never be able to intersect



    The game is a loop so the events have to happen in order so that they could be erased for they need to exist otherwise they can never cease to exist as they once was but are no longer. And this is the 2 sides that can not intersect but co-exist with one another
    Last edited by Ronster; 04-01-2013 at 11:40 AM.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by sharkraiden View Post
    The whole post credits thing is not make any sense for me
    How the hell Booker live and remember everything from columbia after All booker/comstock died in the same water? i think that post credits thing just a Dream or similar nothing else.Baby Anna not even showed in post credits ending.
    Booker is alive because Comstock was the one who was drowned. No one but the writers know what Booker remembers if anything in that scene or if Anna is even in the crib. As a parent there have been plenty of times where I have woken from a deep sleep with the first thought is my kids and I have rushed to check on them just to settle my nerves down. The only way I can see Booker having any memory of what took place in the game is if the entire game was a dream and the post credit scene is him waking from it. Until we get word from the writers really none of us are right or wrong it is all speculation.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by pdx mm View Post
    Booker is alive because Comstock was the one who was drowned. No one but the writers know what Booker remembers if anything in that scene or if Anna is even in the crib. As a parent there have been plenty of times where I have woken from a deep sleep with the first thought is my kids and I have rushed to check on them just to settle my nerves down. The only way I can see Booker having any memory of what took place in the game is if the entire game was a dream and the post credit scene is him waking from it. Until we get word from the writers really none of us are right or wrong it is all speculation.
    Think more along the lines of Booker will always have to become Comstock and steal Anna in order for the Lutece to send Booker to Get Anna back and Anna to erase Comstock from History.

    You cannot have one without the other.

    You cannot quit your job as a postman unless you are actually a postman type of thing.

    Something that never happened can not happen again - (think the Lutence coin toss)

    I'm not sure about Booker remembering anything there is no facts about that only asking if Anna is there any speculation beyond that is futile. And remember it's only a computer game... But a good one at that.

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by pdx mm View Post
    Booker is alive because Comstock was the one who was drowned. No one but the writers know what Booker remembers if anything in that scene or if Anna is even in the crib. As a parent there have been plenty of times where I have woken from a deep sleep with the first thought is my kids and I have rushed to check on them just to settle my nerves down. The only way I can see Booker having any memory of what took place in the game is if the entire game was a dream and the post credit scene is him waking from it. Until we get word from the writers really none of us are right or wrong it is all speculation.

    My theory is simple all Booker and Comstock died.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by sharkraiden View Post
    My theory is simple all Booker and Comstock died.
    This is like Donnie Darko and the Tangent Universe he had to die to stop all the crazy stuff from happening... The characters that woke up after the universe was reset remembered a bit of what happened.

    The thing is everyone is hung up about booker dying at the end which is in fact way before the begining of the story.

    Did you not notice apart from when you are killed by NPC's with guns that he also get's killed a number of times in the game before the end already... 3 or 4 times I think once before battleship bay once as a martyr for the Vox which we don't experience directly, just before we get to comstock house and once more I think but I am a bit hazy on it now.

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by taglag View Post


    Yes I saw that she did not wink out like the rest of the Girl's I assumed that this would be excepted because of her connection to two alternate realities [ her finger in one, and her body in another. [Far fetched I know] ]
    It does leave open a slidder sequel plot line, which could be used in and update, or probably for money reason's a DLC. Where she might bump around and try to find some way to bring Booker back. Or attempt to preform her own repairs to all the Infinite possibilities.

    They have opened a realm now for Bioshock series where anything can be done, and needs very little explanation, and there worlds can be as crazy or logical as they wish.
    The only problem with that, is every other Elizabeth would have the same connection to two realities.

  16. #96
    The last Elizabeth does blink out of existence represented by the sound and the screen going black. However, the last Elizabeth isn't our one that we experienced the events of the game with. Notice how the last time we see our Elizabeth with the pendant around her neck is before we enter the baptism scene, Booker actually notices this when he says "wait who are you". Perhaps destroying the Siphon did more then just allowing her create the tears and open the doors, but also be unchained to the rules of the multiverse.

  17. #97
    As for the last Elizabeth, I think this is something that can be justified either way.
    You could argue she DOES disappear, because all possible multiverses which would have Comstock raise her as Elizabeth, never happen anymore.
    However, if she remains, you could argue that because she is the ONE Elizabeth that broke the siphon (we can believe that this is the only universe in which that actually happens) that now she is so free from that, that she no longer is bound by the logic or progression that the other Elizabeths are bound by. No pendent? Well, I'm probably over thinking it but it's a cool thought nonetheless: she is now free of the bird, and she is now free of her cage, her true cage being, the siphon preventing her from being able to travel across dimensions

  18. #98
    The key in the box that the Twins give Booker has a bird on one side and a cage on the other (Booker picks it up and looks at it when he first receives the box in the boat). That key unlocks the cage in the tower were Elizabeth was being kept.

  19. #99
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    Problem is: drowning and killing Booker in 1912 cannot erase all the Comstocks in the multiverse who have been created (born-again) in 1891.

  20. #100
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    You’re all forgetting the Luteces!!!!! They want to end the loop though inception style revelation.
    What dose Booker say he’s going to do before he enters the last light house? “Smother the bastard in the crib” Anna’s the loop she has the powers, and empowers Comstock appearing to him as the ark angel helping build Columbia and inadvertently crates Elisabeth. But Booker fails to yield and dose not kill Anna, and the loop continues.

  21. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Zso_Zso View Post
    Problem is: drowning and killing Booker in 1912 cannot erase all the Comstocks in the multiverse who have been created (born-again) in 1891.
    From what I remember, tears are independent of time - Elizabeth went back to the very first baptism to drown Booker and eliminate any possibility of Comstock.

    However, the whole memory transfer concept that I mentioned earlier - I believe that could use a decent amount of clarification in the DLC.

  22. #102
    OUR Elizabeth? Look again.

    Do you see her pendant? I don't.

  23. #103
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    There was a time when the newspapers said that only twelve men understood the theory of relativity. I do not believe there ever was such a time. There might have been a time when only one man did, because he was the only guy who caught on, before he wrote his paper. But after people read the paper a lot of people understood the theory of relativity in some way or other, certainly more than twelve. On the other hand, I think I can safely say that nobody understands quantum mechanics.
    - Richard Phillips Feynman

    So am I.
    I don't even trying to pretend that I've understand anything from the final moments of the story.
    I've read endless number of topics explaining endings and still feel myself just as dumb as before.
    The general idea of climax is understandable but there are so many moments that I fear I can't understand.
    Let's begin.
    1. What about constants and variables of which Elizabeth is talking under the stars?
    What are them? Booker? Elizabeth? Lutece? Luteces? Infinite number of universes?
    If constants are the core points in all of the dimensions then they can't be vanished/destroyed/changed?
    As far as I understand, variables is all contents of universes created by our choices?

    Scratch that. Every man in every universe is a result of someone's choice thus he/she can't be a constant, can he?
    So, what is a constant?
    And what is a variable?
    2. Drowning Booker isn't a solution, is it?
    Because a new universe with Booker alive will be created. Will he accept/reject baptism there?
    Related question - is there a way to prevent a person from existing in any world like they tried to do it with Comstock?
    Isn't it impossible?
    There always will be universes where Comstock existed and the ones where he doesn't, right?
    And let's have a look on alternative point.
    If killing a person before an important decision will drastically affect on the outcome then...
    OK, Booker neither accepts nor ignores baptism (don't know how is it possible though)
    Then, neither Elizabeth nor Anna will be born?
    3. What has Comstock achieved by killing Luteces? They were killed just in one universe. Still, that doesn't intervene with Comstock's plans of living with no worries, does it?

    Perhaps, i'll take a pause for a bit and try to calm my fevered mind.
    Desperately waiting for a discussion!

  24. #104

    Lightbulb

    Quote Originally Posted by soulseeker View Post
    - Richard Phillips Feynman

    So am I.
    I don't even trying to pretend that I've understand anything from the final moments of the story.
    I've read endless number of topics explaining endings and still feel myself just as dumb as before.
    The general idea of climax is understandable but there are so many moments that I fear I can't understand.
    Let's begin.
    1. What about constants and variables of which Elizabeth is talking under the stars?
    What are them? Booker? Elizabeth? Lutece? Luteces? Infinite number of universes?
    If constants are the core points in all of the dimensions then they can't be vanished/destroyed/changed?
    As far as I understand, variables is all contents of universes created by our choices?

    Scratch that. Every man in every universe is a result of someone's choice thus he/she can't be a constant, can he?
    So, what is a constant?
    And what is a variable?
    2. Drowning Booker isn't a solution, is it?
    Because a new universe with Booker alive will be created. Will he accept/reject baptism there?
    Related question - is there a way to prevent a person from existing in any world like they tried to do it with Comstock?
    Isn't it impossible?
    There always will be universes where Comstock existed and the ones where he doesn't, right?
    And let's have a look on alternative point.
    If killing a person before an important decision will drastically affect on the outcome then...
    OK, Booker neither accepts nor ignores baptism (don't know how is it possible though)
    Then, neither Elizabeth nor Anna will be born?
    3. What has Comstock achieved by killing Luteces? They were killed just in one universe. Still, that doesn't intervene with Comstock's plans of living with no worries, does it?

    Perhaps, i'll take a pause for a bit and try to calm my fevered mind.
    Desperately waiting for a discussion!
    Booker is drowned, presumably, in the very first universe with the very first baptism event - this wipes out all other universes in which Booker went to the baptism and accepted it to become Comstock. This also wipes out all existing Elizabeths, because without Comstock, and without Columbia, there is no Elizabeth left to exist. All of Comstock's actions - all of anyone's actions in those universes are wiped out to have never existed. If you notice, Booker has done this 122 times before in a similar universe - hence the coin flip at the beginning of the game - the Luteces have a chalkboard with 122 marks under heads. In previous universes, Booker has come 122 times before, and each time, flipped heads - and the same this time, to the Luteces disappointment. Anyways, because he is not baptised, Booker proceeds to have a baby and a relationship, with no Comstock left to take his baby away at the end of the game. Booker can now be the true father he always wanted to be.

    (The Luteces are quantum physicists that were employed by Comstock to get Anna from another universe. Comstock is infertile due to going in and out of quantum tears, so he figures the best way to get an offspring genetically the same is to get it from the universe in which he had a baby - the universe in which he rejected the baptism and went on to have a relationship and a baby. The Luteces do this, and see Booker in grief for 20 years; they regret their actions and have been trying to get Booker back to his baby ever since - they have done this 122 times - also a testament to their dedication and truth in their repentance - in attempting to get baby Anna to have a fulfilling life with Booker and do away with Comstock's universes. Comstock killed the Luteces in other universes, but they can travel in between them - the Lutece "twins" are actually two versions of the same character. In one universe, Lutece was born female; in another, male. It seems Comstock doesn't fully understand the mechanics of tears; and since the Luteces are no longer a nuisance, and he has killed his wife because she also knows the secret of grabbing Anna from another universe, he sets his mind to killing Booker. He knows so much about Booker because he has seen Booker in different universes, and seen the many various courses of actions that Booker took in other universes. This is why Comstock's predictions are creepily accurate- until the end. In other universes, presumably, you get stuck in destroying the siphon - Elizabeth can't figure out what to do. But since you went to another universe and got the help of old Elizabeth, our Elizabeth figures out what she needs to do to blow up the siphon, and then proceeds to the wonderful ending. Seemingly, Elizabeth understands the whole thing and the beauty of it the second she arrives in Rapture.)

    This is a bittersweet ending in that Elizabeth realizes that she will cease to exist after Booker enters the last lighthouse door - hence her asking, "Do you really want to do this?" or something like that. Booker also sacrifices himself to make the horrific and inhumane actions of Comstock to have never happened - eliminating millions of future universes where Booker and others would suffer.

    Constants and variables - a man, a lighthouse, a city. These parallel universes can be completely the same - but completely different. Take Rapture - you have a man, the games protagonist; a lighthouse - the entrance to that "universe", and a city - a society with problems. Despite circumstances being so very different in these universes, the central theme - the "shore" - is the same. The beauty in the choices of this game that it leads you to realize, in the end, your choices don't matter - they won't matter, and they will never matter. Remember when Booker says, "Nobody tells me what to do!" and Elizabeth says, "Booker - you've already been."? Booker has already taken these various paths in a million other universes, and the outcome is always the same. In the same way, your choices don't matter.

    I know my explanation is all jumbled up. You might want to check out this linked article on Forbes, because it explains the ending very well, even though the explanation is a bit incomplete since the writer did not have all the voxphones and therefor, not the full explanation.


    Now that you're caught up, take a look at the OP and what I am talking about. Have Booker's memories transcended from the previous universes? Have Elizabeth's transcended to Anna? What is this!?

  25. #105
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    Here was my theory

    CyborgHippo:
    Maybe the baptism place is linked to all the other doors of Booker's life,like it's the core,imagine a web,and in the middle is "Baptism" and it links out to many other doors of Booker's life since basically every Booker has gone there once in their life right? Though in one universe there has to be a Booker that never intended to go to the baptism,so like someone said,he supposedly had a "guilt-ridden dream" so the Booker we see at the end is the one who never intended to take a baptism or haven't thought about it. So she basically ends all the Bookers who have gone to the baptism as it links to every other door of Bookers who decided to not take the baptism or did take it,and Bookers who decided to do neither stay alived. Now the thing is the debt.... I might assume since he's a father now,he decided to become a good role model for Anna and decide to get a job instead,or paid them back somehow since it was Comstock who wanted Anna so if she already ended the Comstock cycle that means the Lutece twin never came to take the baby.

    ItsCwiss:
    Yeah, I got the feeling they were going for the universes being variations of universe #1. The problem is that with there being Infinite universes then this can't be the case. In Bioshock Infinite's laws of physics, a new universe is created (Which is an impossibility due to the energy and circumstances required for this to happen) each time a decision is made. However, this would mean there would not be Infinite Universes. There would be a finite amount of universes at any given time. The choices based alternate universes that Infinite uses does allow for a moment in which Comstock's universe is created from Booker choosing to be Baptized or not.

    However, this creates a whole new problem. So using Infinite's physics, Elizabeth killing OUR Booker at the moment in which Comstock is created Still achieves nothing as that event has already happened. (Can't stress the Time-Line enough) In order to get the result she wants, which I assume is to stop Comstock from ever being created, Elizabeth would need to travel back in time and kill the PAST version of Booker. NOT the version of Booker that were playing when he was drowned. That simply puts an end to his time-line. It doesn't completely erase all of his actions. That's not how someone dying works, or has ever worked within the Bioshock universe.

    So it still doesn't work.

    My problem with that is that why did we need to see it? For the entire game, and in Bioshock 1&2, we see the world through the eyes of ONE character. Why change that? Doesn't make sense to me.


    CyborgHippo:
    Hmm... Yeah I didn't think about it,why would she kill our Booker? Okay this part might sound dumb but remember how he has to replay all his events like when he ran after Comstock saying "Give me back my daughter you b*stard!" or something like that? I personally as the player felt like I was playing as the young Booker during that specific moment,and it didn't feel like Booker was doing that simply so he and Elizabeth can proceed,but like he actually meant it despite already knowing what will happen and when the tear closes I even think he cries. Somehow (again might sound weird) when he passed that tear,like his younger self was also a reflection of him at the same time. Like the movie Hot Tub Time Machine (dumb movie) practically their appearance is old but when they look at their reflection their still young is basically why I'm saying,so in some way she does kill the young Booker therefore again my theory.

    ItsCwiss:
    Entirely possible I suppose. But then it's all just Booker #3's dream so he'll look after Anna #3 properly and if that's the plot, then it kinda sucks.

    CyborgHippo:
    I'm not saying it was a dream,but simply all the memories of the Booker who succeeded went to Booker #3 so it did actually happen however Booker #3 most likely just shrugs it off as an dream. For all we know,dreams we have in real life could be possible,sometimes you have a dream of a specific family member dying and despite knowing it's a dream you call them anyways right?

    ItsCwiss:
    I have to wonder why Booker #3 would see the events of Booker #1's life. Why would his memories succeed onto Booker #3. It's theoretical science so it's no impossible, it just goes against what accept as scientific fact and so I find it hard to swallow.

    CyborgHippo:
    Well the fact that Comstock knew Booker was coming along with the AD marks on his hand,and well lets say basically knows whats up with Booker,it's possible that all the Booker's memories are connected somehow. Now that only question is why? It seems like we have one more step to solve the mystery of the ending,though I'll bring up the Hot Tub Time Machine (HTTM) thing again. At the end of HTTM,one of their friend decides to relive the past pushing all of his friends (for being stubborn) into their original timeline,now basically his friends lived their past life and at the same time didn't. So his friend lets call him #1 pushes friends #2/3/4 into the original timeline,than they go into their homes see how drastically their life changed. Bringing more background to the story,#2 meets a different girl from the one he met in his original timeline but when he goes to the past he meets a new girl he falls in love with so at the ending his life was drastically changed because he ends up deciding to say in a city that they were staying at for vacation and going on a trip with the woman. Basically it was #2 meets girl > Fall in love > Girl asks him to travel with her > He has to deny because they're not in the same timeline > Push pack into original timeline > Marries the girl,so he practically lived it and didn't live it in a way,friend #3 his life was drastically changed because when he went to the past he calls him wife (who he met years much later) about why he was cheating on her (obviously she was confused) so when he went back to the current timeline his wife said that she never cheated because of the phone call she got many many many years ago. Okay back on topic now,when #1 pushed #2/3/4,although they didn't live lets say that 10 years they were pushed back into their timeline,they in some way lived it keeping the memories but at the same time didn't. So I'm gonna say that Booker #3 faced that experience in some way,not exactly sure but they might bring us half a step higher.

    soulseeker:
    Doesn't this deed cancel Anna's existence at all? If he chooses neither first way nor second then the outcome will be absolutely different. He would never met Anna's mother, never fathered Anna and so on. So, he may have a child in an alternative universe but not Anna...

    CyborgHippo:
    It ends Anna in the all the universes where Booker went to the baptism but in the end didn't take it (Booker we play as),or he did take it (Comstock). The Booker we see at the end never bothered to go to the Baptism at all,basically it's a Booker who realized sooner that a Baptism won't change him,like said by Booker many times throughout the game. "Getting baptize won't make you slate clean" or whatever,so the Booker after the credits was the one who realized that sooner than lets say Booker #1,the one we play throughout the game. This is my assumption of course,and I'm also gonna assume Booker found another way to clean his slate,and that's by being there for Anna and being a good father,and paying off his debts like a man would,getting a job.

    soulseeker:
    I believe i'm really "slow" but here is another question. What stops Booker (which is I believe can't be killed by drowning - only his alter-egos) from accepting/rejecting baptism thus giving a birth to Comstock? Or it would be another man, not Comstock?
    What make you think that running away during sacrament and before will affect him in the same way.
    I guess his whole life could be different depends on that detail. Or no? If no, I'll ask again - what stops Booker from accepting baptism??

    CyborgHippo:
    What stops Booker from accepting the Baptism is he realizes that it's pointless,just putting yourself in water won't clean yourself from all the people you killed. Comstock is an alternate universe Booker who believes the Baptism will reborn him as an new man,he didn't give birth to Comstock for refusing the Baptism.

    And basically my theory is as long as any Booker ever stepped into the Baptism place than their lives are all linked too that one area,so therefore killing the Booker we play as is practically the core,kind of like a heartbeat and when it's stops,all the other Booker's die off too,meaning she kills all the Bookers who gave away Anna or became like Comstock,or not kill but ending all the other universes like they never existed. Therefore leaving the Bookers who decided beforehand to not go to the Baptism in the end lived and again becoming good fathers,paying off their debts like an actual man,and cleaning their slate by being a good father.

    soulseeker:
    So, you want to say accepting baptism was a sudden split-second decision that won't born in his head again if just interrupt a sacrament few minutes before, right? What the point of killing Booker before sacrament, then?

    CyborgHippo:
    The Baptism was a split-second decision,therefore again the Booker we play as is the one who decided it's pointless when he was going to be baptized,Comstock is the one who just wanted to do it because he believed he'll be reborn. Which is why Booker wanted to avoid it at the beginning of the game but was force to do it just so he can get to Columbia,and again the event already but he's force to relive it and right than and there he had to make two choices,become Comstock,or stay Booker DeWitt,the man that gave away his daughter,Elizabeth killed both as Booker said when Elizabeth was saying "He's Zachery Comstock." the other Elizabeth said,"No,he's Booker DeWitt." and than Booker says,"No I'm both." therefore ending all the universes of when he decided to go to the Baptism whether he chose to do it or not.

    soulseeker:
    Aha, finally, I see your point. Seems pretty smooth to me.
    So, he have rejected baptism thus denying Comstock's existence.
    Let me summarize that part again. Killing Booker does not affect him in a fatal way and does not annihilates all Bookers from existing (just Comstock) and does not affect his future life (he still meets Anna's mother, giving life to Anna and so on) except ceasing Elizabeth from existence?

    CyborgHippo:
    Yes because after he is baptized the priests asks him what he wants to be his new name since he is reborn. Though it does affect his future life,Comstock's future was living in a flying city with his own type of religion,while the Booker who denied the baptize ended up staying in New York,giving away Anna,and having to after her 20 years later (when he is brainwashed to "Bring the girl and wipe away the debt."

    Here's what I'm saying. Drowning Booker ends all the Bookers and Comstocks who went to the sacrament whether they decided to accept it or not,meaning any Booker that was like the one we played as or the Bookers who became Comstock all don't exist anymore. Booker #1 = Being the Booker we play as,Booker #2 = Comstock,and Booker #3 = End-credits Booker. By drowning Booker #1 that means there was never an opportunity to have a Booker #2 therefore ending all the universes involving Booker #1 or #2. While Booker #3 is the Booker who has never gone to the sacrament and deciding before Booker #1 that a baptize was pointless.

  26. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by tusing View Post
    I know my explanation is all jumbled up. You might want to check out this linked article on Forbes, because it explains the ending very well, even though the explanation is a bit incomplete since the writer did not have all the voxphones and therefor, not the full explanation.
    No, sir, it's almost ingenuine. I believe that I understand every your point. I have to think about it though.
    Quote Originally Posted by tusing View Post
    Now that you're caught up, take a look at the OP and what I am talking about. Have Booker's memories transcended from the previous universes? Have Elizabeth's transcended to Anna? What is this!?
    And... what are your thoughts regarding that moments?
    How do you think it's possible?

    [UPD] Btw, regarding original post... incredibly sad to admit but i think the last Elizabeth (which is still standing when image fades to black) disappears too (each note resembles "dying" of one of the Elizabeth's alter-ego. so, i don't now if real Elizabeth were there or no but every Elizabeth disappeared after drowning... I don't know what to think, honestly... Not today at least...

  27. #107
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    CyborgHippo, yeah, I remember our discussion. I believe I've understood most points, though we are still trying to understand how does he remember his alter-ego's deeds in other universes...

  28. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by soulseeker View Post
    No, sir, it's almost ingenuine. I believe that I understand every your point. I have to think about it though.

    And... what are your thoughts regarding that moments?
    How do you think it's possible?

    [UPD] Btw, regarding original post... incredibly sad to admit but i think the last Elizabeth (which is still standing when image fades to black) disappears too (each note resembles "dying" of one of the Elizabeth's alter-ego. so, i don't now if real Elizabeth were there or no but every Elizabeth disappeared after drowning... I don't know what to think, honestly... Not today at least...
    Yeah. The sacrifice our Elizabeth and Booker made were incredible ones - they could have gone off to Paris and lived the good life (in their universe), but they chose the right thing - they chose to help when they had the power to do so, even if it meant their whole existence. The reason the ending is so emotional is because we rarely see sacrifice like this - we often see sacrifice where people are remembered after death for their actions. But for someone willing to give up the whole of their existence - the whole reality of their life, gone just like that - we never see that happening, and it is far beyond the magnitude of sacrifice we see in our own lives. A decision that, even though many of us would not admit it, we would have difficulty making, perhaps we would hesitate- yet to see Elizabeth and Booker proceed steadfastly in their journey for redemption is heart-warming, but in a way, sad.

    However, if Booker's memories have melded as I described in the updated OP - that might be a bright note. Especially if Elizabeth's conscious is preserved somehow... In Anna, perhaps, as others have noted?

  29. #109
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    About the reason of Booker possibly keeping his memories in the after-credits - what if in the moment of his "death" somehow the same event (or similar) that happened to the Lutece's when they died happened to Booker? He did overuse the tear's afterall.

  30. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by soulseeker View Post
    CyborgHippo, yeah, I remember our discussion. I believe I've understood most points, though we are still trying to understand how does he remember his alter-ego's deeds in other universes...
    Yeah I already posted it an explanation I can't really explain

    Well the fact that Comstock knew Booker was coming along with the AD marks on his hand,and well lets say basically knows whats up with Booker,it's possible that all the Booker's memories are connected somehow. Now that only question is why? It seems like we have one more step to solve the mystery of the ending,though I'll bring up the Hot Tub Time Machine (HTTM) thing again. At the end of HTTM,one of their friend decides to relive the past pushing all of his friends (for being stubborn) into their original timeline,now basically his friends lived their past life and at the same time didn't. So his friend lets call him #1 pushes friends #2/3/4 into the original timeline,than they go into their homes see how drastically their life changed. Bringing more background to the story,#2 meets a different girl from the one he met in his original timeline but when he goes to the past he meets a new girl he falls in love with so at the ending his life was drastically changed because he ends up deciding to say in a city that they were staying at for vacation and going on a trip with the woman. Basically it was #2 meets girl > Fall in love > Girl asks him to travel with her > He has to deny because they're not in the same timeline > Push pack into original timeline > Marries the girl,so he practically lived it and didn't live it in a way,friend #3 his life was drastically changed because when he went to the past he calls him wife (who he met years much later) about why he was cheating on her (obviously she was confused) so when he went back to the current timeline his wife said that she never cheated because of the phone call she got many many many years ago. Okay back on topic now,when #1 pushed #2/3/4,although they didn't live lets say that 10 years they were pushed back into their timeline,they in some way lived it keeping the memories from past #2/#3/#4. So I'm assuming when #1 pushed #2/#3/#4 back to their current timeline,young #2/#3/#4 who were originally in the past timeline were recreated,and basically #2/#3/#4 of the current timeline got all the memories of the past #2 - 4,and practically lived it,but at the same time didn't. So I'm gonna say that Booker #3 faced that experience in some way,not exactly sure but they might bring us half a step higher.

  31. #111

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    Quote Originally Posted by fsilverio View Post
    About the reason of Booker possibly keeping his memories in the after-credits - what if in the moment of his "death" somehow the same event (or similar) that happened to the Lutece's when they died happened to Booker? He did overuse the tear's afterall.
    Remember how Booker has had nosebleeds, and anyone who seems to have their consciousness merge through worlds have nosebleeds? Well, one thing I found interesting that Elizabeth never had nosebleeds once in the whole game. And Booker's memory seems to have merged without a nosebleed. The Luteces, however - I am unsure on them. They seem to retain memories, but the game doesn't explain very well if memories across multiple pairs of Luteces merge. For example, when we're on the boat and you see all these Lutece pairs on platforms, we don't know if they share a common consciousness or memories.

    Interestingly, it seems that the Elizabeths at the end share a conscious. Notice how they complete sentences for each other, say "smother" at virtually the same time... it seems all of them share a common stream of consciousness. Are they representations of OUR Elizabeth who stayed outside the lighthouse? I know they are from different universes, but their sharing of consciousness is intriguing... they think Booker is Booker, but Comstock at the same time, they all have a shared memory it seems...

  32. #112
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    I thought the nosebleeds only happened when a person has two (or more) sets of memories. Booker got them when he would have memories from his universe mixed with the one he was in like when he started to recall leading the Vox. I didn't understand why this was happening to others like Chen since they were not the ones who traveled through the tear. Maybe I am missing something with this.

  33. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by tusing View Post
    The Luteces, however - I am unsure on them.
    Actually I think that it may have been hinted in the game that they DO share some kind of concious/memory
    remember the part where you took a lift upward and you saw the luteces playing baseball with eachother?

    Well at that point elizabeth explains to booker how colombia is still floating (particles which don't fall and quantum physics etc)
    and the luteces are finnishing eachothers sentences perfectly then elizabeth says : ''How do you suppose they manage that?''
    and booker exclaims something along the lines of': ''we'll get to that later, i'm still trying to figure out the floating city thing''

    now that i think about it that seems like a quite a big hint actually!
    when the two main characters are trying to figure it out it must mean something.

    Any thoughts on this?

  34. #114
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    The story borrows heavily from Donnie Darko. That's the real enigma.

  35. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by ShioBock View Post
    Actually I think that it may have been hinted in the game that they DO share some kind of concious/memory
    remember the part where you took a lift upward and you saw the luteces playing baseball with eachother?

    Well at that point elizabeth explains to booker how colombia is still floating (particles which don't fall and quantum physics etc)
    and the luteces are finnishing eachothers sentences perfectly then elizabeth says : ''How do you suppose they manage that?''
    and booker exclaims something along the lines of': ''we'll get to that later, i'm still trying to figure out the floating city thing''

    now that i think about it that seems like a quite a big hint actually!
    when the two main characters are trying to figure it out it must mean something.

    Any thoughts on this?
    This is actually a very good point! Now we are getting somewhere! So, it seems both the multiple Elizabeths and the multiple Luteces have a shared stream of conscience... this supports our theory much more!

  36. #116
    Maybe not just them either. It kinda works like that for the dead guards and Chen when you pass thru the tear - they have a shared consciousness between the two universes and their minds cant handle it all. So it could simply be that the key to Elizabeth and the Leuteces power to traverse time and space is the ability to be able to process multiple shared consciousnesses in harmony ?

  37. #117
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    Hey can anyone tell me, what actually happens that our Elizabeth is not with us in final (Baptism/Drowning) scene ?
    There are many others, including the first one we look at, but she is not the one, we were travelling with - no bruised eye, no pendants...etc.

  38. #118
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    Maybe she couldn't bring herself to kill Booker but others could

  39. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by FU_n View Post
    Maybe she couldn't bring herself to kill Booker but others could
    I'm not sure. She didn't even seem resigned to the fact that he had to die, she asked him if he's "sure this is what you want", before Booker throws himself into the lighthouse without a second thought.

  40. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by kanid99 View Post
    Maybe not just them either. It kinda works like that for the dead guards and Chen when you pass thru the tear - they have a shared consciousness between the two universes and their minds cant handle it all. So it could simply be that the key to Elizabeth and the Leuteces power to traverse time and space is the ability to be able to process multiple shared consciousnesses in harmony ?
    Ah... maybe you can only form coherent memories if you are exposed to tears? Or maybe your memories are disrupted if someone form another universe in which you died enter your current universe?

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