I'm not using this as evidence of "okay". That is a tougher issue. But the huge number of people who said that BioShock introduced SecuROM to the world are flat-out wrong.
I'm not using this as evidence of "okay". That is a tougher issue. But the huge number of people who said that BioShock introduced SecuROM to the world are flat-out wrong.
No one is asking you not to voice your opinion my post is still entirely true. Which part is not true?
1-2k and Bioshock will have some sort of security involved.
2-it is impossible to please everyone.
3- Once it is fully disclosed and understood you have the choice to accept it and buy the game or not.
I feel like, in this thread, it's really only three or four people who are so vocally opposed to these horrible, horrible, DRM methods and trying to stir the pot... say these are methods that even Hitler would shudder at! Methods so vile, I dare not say their names, yet shall... methods such as selling your first born, sacrificing one of your lungs, and downloading Windows Live..
I have never had an issue with any of the DRM methods that are included with BioShock 2. I've never had an issue with Steam. And I think I'm in the majority.
It is true that this game does not have that, it is also true that GFWL is less user friendly, and based on the information we have here, it also has an install limit, which is unacceptable when other companies are using disk checks only.
Whatever, this is going no where, no ones gives a F, it is obvious that incentives were given to 2k in order to have this POS tied to this would-be-wonderful game, I'll give it a miss now.
That being said, I don't deny that some people DO legitimately have problems related to DRM. What I'm saying is that the number of people who actually have suffered from issues resulting from DRM doing something on their system are considerably lower than many would claim. Doesn't make it any less serious, but it is a lower number.
Would I prefer to see just a disc check? Sure, but that's exceedingly rare in this day and age.
As for our experiences, both are valid. I never said mine trumped yours. I simply pointed out that not everyone has the horrible experience that you and a few others seem so passionate about. The biggest obstacle to improving/eliminating DRM is that the folks who are opposed can rarely discuss it objectively. Demonizing DRM and speaking in absolutes and generalities only makes it more difficult to come to any sort of understanding.
steam has updated the DRM list:
3rd-party DRM: SecuROM™
5 machine activation limit
It seems to me that it not a simple disk check.
So which is it, full DRM, no DRM, GFWL activation, GFWL for online only ( and offline profile for single player ), or any combination of the above.
Maybe throw in a 'constant internet connection required', maybe a subscription fee or 2...
"Initial installation requires one-time internet connection; Ability to save game, earn achievements, receive title updates and online play requires log-in to Games for Windows LIVE; software installations required including Microsoft Visual C++2008 Runtime Libraries, Games for Windows LIVE client, Games for Windows LIVE Client Patch, Sony DADC SecuROM, Microsoft DirectX."
Sounds to me like it's using full DRM the same as the first PLUS GFWL, what a kick in the teeth.
Last edited by dchalfont; 01-20-2010 at 07:51 PM.
I find that somewhat of rarity in itself these days. I am not going to even go on my tirade once again about what 2k does for their fans; however, it is a lot.
Liz and the devs are the only ones who are paid to be here. It is her JOB to answer your questions. Just wait, and I am 100% sure that she will attempt to answer your questions once she is working again.
Also, seeing as Steam still lists Far Cry 2 as using Tages (and it doesn't, and hasn't for awhile now), they aren't exactly perfect in this regard.
It appears nothing has changed concerning DRM since the BS1 days. My understanding of this thread was to discuss the retail PC version of the game and not the digitally distributed version. The steam page does indicate that SecuROM is going to be used and that there is a 5 machine activation limit, this is probably because it is digitally distributed. You folks that are complaining didn't actually think that 2K wasn't going to protect their IP did you? I'm no fan of DRM other than disc checks, but to date I haven't had any issues with Steam, GFWL or SecuROM. However, I wouldn't discourage expressing your opinion regarding DRM as some seem to be trying, but do back your arguments with facts and not fiction. If you don't like the intrusive nature of some of these DRM schemes, then let them know by not buying games that have these schemes. You alone won't make a difference, but if 1000's do this it will send a big message. Vote with your wallet. Flaming 2K and other forum members will not help your case and will make you look foolish.
I'm afraid any kind words here won't help things. The game news media has already taken and run with the ball they were presented, and there is mass outrage on all fields.
First post in this thread, here's my opinion:
Look Securom, Limited Activations and GFWL all kind of piss me off and make me wait until the game is either really cheap or wait for ALL the reviews (not just the paid off ones) and then decide if the brilliance of the game outways the pathetic restriction applied to the paying loyal customers. Not to the pirates.
The one game that i think did it okay was Batman:AA where each month it'd reset and give you back all 5 activations. So say worst case scenario you wipe your HDD, install a new GPU and have 2 computers with the game installed on it via network and they all get screwed. Then you can likely still play your game that month without calling anyone or dealing with 2k/Securom/MS/Steam etc. in a massive chase everyone around via email &*()storm.
So if Bioshock's system were to have a monthly rollover reset then I would be much happier rather than the activate/deactivate BS. At least then you can wipe your HDD without having to pick out the 20 or so games that have securom installed and one by one deactivate them with the 20 different revoke systems that we all now have on our HDDs for TAGES, Securom etc. etc. and the now awesome Starforce from Wings of Prey.
So yeah... it's the activate/deactive thing that annoys me. But 5x5 is the bare minimum. Any less and I'd be going nuts.
Anyway not buying the game anyway due to the BS price discrepancy in Australia vs. rest of the world. So whatever. I warned 2k when they did the same thing with Borderlands (which I did buy at the same price as the US, but then 2k increased the price...)
Actually I have one question:
If I buy a used retail copy of Bioshock 2 via ebay will I have access to every feature that someone paying full price would have access to?
i.e. will the activations be there? will GFWL work? will multiplayer work? does GFWL only allow the game to be tied to one account like Dirt 2?
Basically if I want to not support you with my money by buying it second hand will the game still work 100% as per buying it retail or via steam?
However, if you think every single claim a search engine will turn up is true, you're deluding yourself. For every person who HAS had a legitimate problem due to DRM there are 200 others claiming 'they heard from a guy who knew this other guy that DRM caused his computer to rise up and attack him in his sleep'. Thousands of entries turning up in Google doesn't make those thousands of entries true or factual.
Do I think you're lying? No, and I never said that I did...I said that the vast majority of claims of what DRM does ARE wrong, ARE based on misinformation and ARE gross exaggerations. If you had a DRM-related issue, that IS too bad and I hope that it was somehow rectified.
Last edited by Arctic Blast; 01-20-2010 at 08:41 PM.
I just cancelled my pre-order and must say you're only punishing the legit customers who are/were going to purchase your game. Idiots!
Last edited by webberz; 01-20-2010 at 09:25 PM.
I really don't understand why we have to have it at all? 360/ps3 players are allowed to play their game on any other 360/ps3 they want. Eg..other friends/family members console's without having to worry about the number of installs.
So why should Pc be different? The game has to have a disc to be played(just like console versions) You can't simply run the game off memory. So why do they come down so hard on Pc players? They should put a 15 limit activation on consoles too.
If their worried about burning the game, then they should install some type of anti duplicating code, like dvd's and video game consoles do. Not Drm. If I'm paying 100 F'ing dollars for their game, then I should be able to play it whenever and wherever I want.
Also, do you have to pay for a GFWL activation? like 360 makes you do?
I was soooooo excited about all the new aspects that B2 is going to have for Pc. with the new 3D graphics and extra content. But now I'm really scared. I have a extremely exspensive computer(alienwware) It's brand new and I want to keep it that way. Nothing is going to stop me from getting B2, but after reading these posts I'm freaked out. Should I be?
I also want to thank the Mods and Elizabeth for their hardwork. You guys really make this forum a joy to be a part of.
One more question: What's the word on dedicated servers? I guess we can pretty much right them off since it's going to be a Game for Windows. (If that is true, then I'm really going to lose it!)
Games for Windows Live does not charge. You won't have to pay anything extra because of it.
Thx for the info Arctic. I can rest alittle easier now. Do you play on Pc? I just want to hear from people who have had first hand experiences with securom. And if it truly can mess up your comp.
Where are you going to be buying BS2 from? If you're buying it online and downloading it, there won't be SecuROM...that's only going to be on physical retail disc copies. And even then, it sounds like it's only going to be a disc check.
To be honest, I've never had any issues with SecuROM. I can understand why some people don't like it (and there are features of it that I flat out don't like), but (as I've stated in this thread already) I think the case against it has been a bit overblown in comparison to other systems.
Anyway, I'm going to try sleeping again (stupid insomnia ). Hope I've been of help.
I know I promised to stay away from this discussion earlier, but a few of the comments have me itching to respond.
A couple of people have mentioned how the DRM issue is overblown, referencing BS1 as a good example, and that they have never experienced any problems. Whilst I agree that most 'Normal' pc users are unlikely to experience issues, and I sincerly hope they never do, but if you are unlucky like me, and have experienced these problems in the past with forms of DRM and limited activations then you might understand why some people are annoyed to the point where they will no longer purchase a game. DRM has caused problems for me ranging from having to rebuild the OS to remove incompatible drivers (Tages protection running on Windows 7 thanks to 'The Witcher'), Blue screened my PC causing a corrupt NTOSKRNL and trashed my OS forcing a rebuild (Starforce that came with 'GT Legends'), running out of activations and having to wait up to 5 days for more activations to be granted (RFactor), through to being refused content activation (Multiple addons for Oblivion which I'd purchased and wanted to reinstall after a rebuild, I was told to repurchase the 'Game of the Year' addition of the game!).
So yeah, if you have never experienced issues before then I can understand why you might be sat there wondering why people are kicking off about this, and I know there is an element of exageration, such as claiming DRM is a 'Virus' etc. But please do not let that override the concerns of genuine potential customers who have no intentions of resorting to piracy, but are wary of these DRM solution thanks to an ongoing history of previous problems.
Also for those wondering how anyone can burn through 15 activations, Think about these questions:
Is an OS re-Install an activation ?
If running multiple OS's on a PC, does each require an activation ?
Do individual user profiles each require an activation ?
Does a change in hardware such as Motherboard, CPU, GPU require an activation ?
If I update my BIOS to a later version does the game require re-activation ?
If the answer is yes to these above questions then I calculate that I would have already gone through 8 activations since the start of this year because I am a geek and so far have installed multiple OS's, wiped and rebuilt due to Tages causing corruption in my win 7 install, put in 2 new GPU's.
I am not against DRM, if the DRM is fair to the customer, I do not consider having to call expensive overseas phone numbers fair, (some calls have cost me almost as much as repurchasing the game!), I do not consider excessive re-activation times fair, with that in mind I have this question:
**** If I run out of activations and have to call Microsoft, is it a freephone call from the UK ? and is it an automated activation system that is available 24x7 much like the windows activation line ? ****
After reading every page, I agree with pretty much everything Connect has said.
- EA's DRM is one to learn from
- Steam's DRM is not the solution. A publisher just has to have a disagreement with Steam and they could pull all their games, and that's just one concern.
My questions to 2kElizabeth:
- will BS2 have any activation outside of Games for Windows?
- will BS2 have a zero day piracy check? (e.g. verify release date, or download executible)
- why are multiple forms of DRM (disk check and Games for Windows) implemented? Surely a onetime authentication (be it Securom authentication, OR disk check, OR Games for Windows authentication) is all that's required to ensure one is not a pirate?
- is the disk check just to add value to other versions of the game (e.g. make people buy the digital version too?)
- is Games for Windows just implemented so that people cannot resell their game?
- can 2K consider releasing a disk check removal for Bioshock 1? It's frustrating that it still has 3 types of DRM 2 years after release. I have emailed Take 2 and posted once on these forums about this, but have not had any indications that you're taking comments on board about these issues...
Here's how I see it - I prefer physical versions, which I believe are the best versions. I don't believe we should have to put up with online authentication for these versions. With digital downloads it's perhaps more reasonable, but the fact remains that with physical having multiple forms of DRM is offputting and excessive. What I'd prefer is physical versions not requiring online authentication, so I can install 5 + years in the future if it takes my fancy. If other games can do it...
I'm happy buying Securom games where it's a simple activation or disk check. Securom'd Mirror's Edge manages a revokable activation and does not require a disk check. *happy skip*
I'm happy buying digital versions of Dragon Age: Origins where the activation and online experience is totally administered by Electronic Arts.
I'm happy using Games for Windows with games like Fallout 3 that allow you to play without the disk. But I am concerned that Games for Windows is not universal and many people will be restricted.
I'm not happy buying games where the DRM is excessive and unreasonable. I really want to contribute the BS2 developers' efforts and amazing artistic creativity and vision which I respect and admire a ton, but I'm torn by not wanting to endorse the insanity of how the game is being sold to me - because that just means games will be packaged like this in the future.
It's a pity there isn't more consultation done with the community on these issues.
Last edited by Mellifluous; 01-21-2010 at 03:55 AM.
This kind of protection caused thousands of potential buyers of Batman arkham asylum to not buy the game and isntead downloaded an illegal game wich when cracked u just created an offline profile and u could save anyways without any worries of drm, gfwl or any other issues with a legal game.. sad thing it will be the same with bioshock 2 the protection is way overkill compared to consoles ..
There are a lot of computers with SecuROM installed on them. I don't doubt it's caused some conflicts, but the same can be said of almost any software. If it was universally bad, you'd know it. There'd be a ton more first-hand complaints (as opposed to the many, many second-hand complaints or complaints based on principle).
Think about this. SecuROM makes it tough for people to remove their software. Why? Because they know that a lot of the requests come from people who just read about it and think it's some sort of plague. So they want it removed before it damages their computer. Only problem is that it's been safely running on their computers for years. And when they remove it, a bunch of their games stop working. They don't know why, and they start complaining. And on it goes....
After the trouble I had with the original Bioshock, I really hoped Take Two wouldn't have been so customer-unfriendly this time. Looks like I was wrong. Still, at least I'll be saving £25, which I think I'll use to buy Mass Effect 2 instead. If and when Take Two come to their senses I'll consider buying this, until then EA (amazingly) is far more deserving of my money.3rd-party DRM: SecuROM™ 5 machine activation limit
A requirement for "online activation" still means the game requires internet access to play, therefor I will not buy the game. I sure hope that atleast somebody in charge reades on this forum and realize that including this kind of DRM pisses people off and result in loss of sales while the effect on piracy is nil.
no offense to anyone here...I can understand why people are upset...but...all these posts about ''i'm mad so i'm not going buy the game'' won't really help the solve the issues that people are complaining about
I'm making a list of questions - and yes, I take your concerns to the team who decides this stuff and they listen. Your words are being heard.
I agree it won't solve the issues but what do you expect? people to say "I'm so mad but I think I will by the game anyway" How else are we supposed to make a stand and show we wont tolerate such stringent measures. Lots of other PC games manage to launch without the requirement to install GFWL + DRM especially if you are buying the steam version, I mean wasn't that the whole point of steam anyway or have I missed something?
Last edited by Adam Addict L; 01-20-2010 at 11:43 PM.