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Thread: The official "Why no Spain, Inca, Zulu, Tannu Tuva, Bhutan, etc" Thread

  1. #1
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    The official "Why no Spain, Inca, Zulu, Tannu Tuva, Bhutan, etc" Thread

    There has been an overwhelming amount of threads lately asking for a specific civilization to be added to the game. Please use this thread to make the case for your specific civilization, any other threads that are created will be merged with this one.
    Last edited by Kyburz; 06-28-2010 at 12:24 AM.

  2. #2
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    Thumbs up

    As we have the English it would be rude not to have the other members of the Union, the Scots, the Welsh and the Northern Irish.

    And why is no-one representing for the Scandinavians? Even without the Vikings I think as Icelands volcano has effected so much world trade recently they should be thrown in there for pure inconvenience.

  3. #3
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    I'm Pretty sure that England is supposed to be the empire, not the modern union.

    But I would suggest the maori as a civilization. They were very unique and would add another flavor to the game, besides european, asian, N/S american, or african- Islander. Also, on world maps, they would fill the black hole of New Zealand/Australia.

  4. #4
    i understand its called the Eu, but make no mistake its a American invention

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    Thumbs up

    Inuits. They could fill the large hole of Northern Canada and Greenland. UU-Whale killer, Capital-Iqaluit. Yes, I am an American who knows geography.

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    I disagree with Conservative American.

    Oh, wait...

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    Why Not Spain???

    The only thing they've gotten is spaniards are not going to buy this version, and we weill wait till the next one...

  8. #8
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    Yes I don't understand how Spain is kept out but then the Songhai are left in?
    I know they need an african civilization but still.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liberal View Post
    I disagree with Conservative American.

    Oh, wait...
    HAHA....Very funny.... my fellow American with a conflicting viewpoint.

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    Kyburz

    Irony in the good place.
    Thanks!

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    Smile

    I think they should add the Canadian Civilisation. I know it is a newer civilisation but I think it deserves to be in there...

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    why!!!!!

    does anybody know if there is any option to include other civilizations before launching the game?

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    Well i am surprised no research was made ... many great civilizations were not included and just to be on the point- where is Bulgaria ,i don`t want to be rude but the game is called Civilization and the oldest and those that have actually made a mark on history should be included and yet we have America (a very knew civilization) and we have Rome (a dead one oO ).
    I get it marketing but still add one of the real powers of the old days and its not that i am Bulgarian ,look at history till the Ottoms invaded (5 centuries of slavery and we are still here and we aint Turks and we are not islamic etc etc.) Bulgaria was one of the major powers in Europe...
    My English is a lil rusty so excuse me
    Whit Respect Radoslav .

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    Quote Originally Posted by kandel1984 View Post
    does anybody know if there is any option to include other civilizations before launching the game?
    Of course there isn't, but you can name your civ as you want. Isn't this the same?


    equilibrium
    The Balkans are occupied by Greece, but you're right, we would all be glad to have a Central European civ.
    Just Bulgaria is too South... (hm, we could get regional Slav civs. Jugoslav for the Balkan Peninsula, and Non-Jugo-Slav for East Central Europe (or Hungary with a very alien culture and language). Or simply say that there's Russia and a Panslav civ in Central Europe, representing the following nations:
    • Bulgaria
    • Serbia
    • Albania
    • Romania
    • Croatia
    • Slovenia
    • Moldova
    • Poland
    • Lithunia
    • Latvia
    • Estonia
    • Ukraine
    • Slovakia with its 30 years of history
    Are there any others? (Russia is independent)

  15. #15
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    Canadian Empire

    I think that there should be a Canadian Empire in civ. Yes we are a young nation, created in 1867, however we have accomplished huge amounts of "wonders" and have had many great leaders. We are an incredible cultured civilization; throughout our entire history, we have only had 2 political assassinations, in 1868, and 1970.
    Examples of wonders could be thought of easily. For example, we have the Avro Arrow, which was debatably the best plane in the world. It was an incredible plane, and is still considered to have been good for today's standards, and this was back in 1959! We also had expo 67, an incredible occasion in which all cultures of the world were able to come out and show their culture, held in Quebec. Along with our natural wonders, such as Whistler Blackholm, a ski hill visited by people all over the world, which hosted the winter olympics in 2010! We have many wonders that could be made.
    For leaders that is easy, you could go with our first Prime Minister ever, Sir John A. Macdonald. Or one of the most famous Prime Ministers Pierre Elliott Trudeau, an extremely charismatic man, PM during the October Crisis of 1970. Or look at Lester B Pearson, the inventor of Peace Keepers, who later became our Prime Minister. Robert Borden (PM in WWI), William Lyon Mackenzie King (longest PM ever in Canada, and PM during WWII) John Diefenbaker, famous for his decomission of the Avro Arrow.
    And for any doubting our military power, that we cannot be a nation because we have no military, guess what! We were strong contributers and have always been strong fighters. WWI, the battle of Somme, a brutal battle won by the Canadians by our enginuity and ingenius ways to overcome war chemicals. Vimy Ridge, a ridge essential to France during WWI occupied by the Germans until 1917, when the Canadians as lead by Arthur Currie captured it, a feat which nie the English or the French could do (yes they tried, I am not saying they are poor military countries, as I do respect both of them highly, I'm saying in this case, the Canadians did best). And let's look at the battle of Normandy (D-Day, WWII) The Canadians captured Juno beach, and were the only beach to complete all of their objectives, nor the Americans or the British completed their objectives, not to say they didn't do a great job. The Korean war, the Canadians faught in with the United Nations army, with but 300 casualties! And then the Sues Crisis, a threat of turning into WWIII, Lester B Pearson Rose up and thought of the idea of Peace Keepers, which potentially avoided another major war! We don't hold many special military units, the Avro Arrow would have been one, however we do hold a strong military throughout history!
    Special buildings, we've got the CN tower, the former tallest building in the world! St Denis theater, one of the most renoun comedy locations in the world. The Parliment Buildings, where our government sits. And that is just some!
    So really I think the Canadian Empire deserves to be a part of Civilization 5. Yes we were a colony of Great Britain until the mid 19th century, however we gained our indipendence, and worked hard to be the country we are today, the least we can have is to be our own empire. The Americans are, and they are not too much older than us, Germany is, they were not an actual country until around 1871 i believe, which is years after Canada became its own country. So I ask with the typical Canadian politeness, to please add our empire to your game!

  16. #16
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    No Canada! I'm sorry but you haven't done much by yourselves thats great.

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    Well to be more honest Bulgaria was on 3 seas not once ,Russia and almost all of the Slavic nations took our language ,and most of the countrys that you have given as an example haven`t even been thought about at the time Bulgaria ruled on their lands .
    Will just give this example Otto Von Bismark who is in the game is responsible for the cutting of the Bulgarian nation that the Sanstefano (not shure how its writen) peace treathy give as and we were again on 3 seas with that treaty .Bulgaria has Destroyed the Latin Empire ,a Bulgarian Emperor was Suzerian on Byzantium which we all know was the separet part of Rome.A Bulgarian stoped the Arabian Invasion the Khan that did it was Tervel and Bulgaria stoped the Ottoms invasion .There are 100s more examples of how we have changed history and it is not fiction ,but historycal facts.
    Modern times are even more changed by our nation even though everything.
    Bulgarian created the Computer and that is a fact as well (John Atanasov went to live in America in the comunistic times in BG)
    Bulgarian created the engines that were used on the Apolo mission.
    etc etc etc
    I am sorry if i am to stubborn to understand why such a discrimination can be done .I haven`t got the time to write everything that we have marked on history , shure we haven`t made the Sfinks or something but we have defenetly made a stronger mark than most of the civilizations that are in the game at this point ... its sad i mean realy and its not just Bulgaria i see Spain isn`t there aswell and some unknown civilizations are on the places of the the ones that have to be ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Darragh View Post
    As we have the English it would be rude not to have the other members of the Union, the Scots, the Welsh and the Northern Irish.
    Whenever I play England, I usually change the name to Britain, because they called it the British Empire, not the English Empire! I think if the name was changed to Britain, that might try to solve the situation. The term British is sort of the description for England, Scotland, Wales, and for a long time all of Ireland.

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    Austria or Austria-Hungary. I think they manage to be important enough historically.

    Leader: Maria Theresa, Joseph II or Franz Joseph I
    UA: Habsburg Lands; spontaneous diplomatic marriages will earn you random patches of lands from other civilizations. Or Kapellmeister; major burst of culture, in reference to Austria's huge contributions to Music.
    UU: Not sure. Maybe Hussar, but that might be more Polish.
    Capital: Vienna, of course.
    Last edited by SalvustheArrogant; 06-28-2010 at 07:03 AM. Reason: more ideas…

  20. #20
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    There are many flagrant omissions in this civ: Mongols, Spanish, Incas, Kjmer, Malinese... generally talking, first vainilla civilization selection always tend to be lacking. Still, I can't get over the inclusion of the Iroquois over all these other civs, seriously, it is facepalm - worthy. Still, I am quite happy over the inclusion of Siam and the Shongai, two traditionally underrated civs that have had a tremendous impact on the world's history of their respective regions.

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    What-- no Vikings?

    First, before I get into the Viking spiel...

    The English should have a special attack in the modern era called "oil spill". Heh.

    Okay, no Viking and I simply won't buy. Viking is my heritage, and they were also a very important part of history. The sea attacks are awesome. You could do Viking longboats (which would be cool as heck to see in-game, shields running all along the sides), and Viking architecture was cool as well. Very feared civ that still runs throughout the kids' history textbooks today.

    Songhai? Really?

    And don't insult us by making the Vikings / Mongols / etc. a "buyable" civ. I'm sick of that marketing crap... big turn-off.

    P.S. Why not Xbox 360? You could do it. I've been a hardcore PC gamer since 1984, played all of Sid's early stuff (F-15 Strike Eagle, Silent Service, original Civ, etc.), but I have been totally sold on the Xbox as the best gaming platform for the last year or two. Completely sold.

    Anyway, cheers. Hope you get this "Civs" thing right for this Civ 5 game... I think you guys need to reconsider why you're leaving out some historical and traditional "Civ" civs... and quit listening to the marketing department, who are going to lose you some sales...

    -f

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by fiercey13 View Post
    The English should have a special attack in the modern era called "oil spill". Heh.
    No, bp is a multinational corp, the american branch was responsible for the spill.

    Anyway, I was expecting an Isabella of Spain. The Mongols and Zulus will be missed just as theyre the civs Im usually the most angry with. The Aztecs are going to have be even more annoying to make up for their absence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Belgarion View Post
    No Canada! I'm sorry but you haven't done much by yourselves thats great.
    Oh yah, we've only introduced universal health care, peace keepers, the former fastest plane in the world, hosted one of the most succesful expo's ever, hosted 2 extremely successful Olympic games, captured Vimy Ridge, hosted the common wealth aeronodical training base during WWII. We have done so much on our own, and I am incredibly offended for you to say otherwise! Especially so close to Canada day! My friend, in my opinion you simply don't know enough about Canadian history. I apologize we didn't have a roll in the cold war, you know, except for one of the major starting points with the Gozenko affair, I'm sorry we entered WWII one week after the war had officially started. If there are Americans in the game, there should be Canadians too, we faught for our independence, and I believe it should be shown in Civ. You think we haven't done much by ourselves, that's simply an uneducated point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HOBrFINCl View Post
    Oh yah, we've only introduced:
    the former fastest plane in the world
    hosted one of the most succesful expo's ever
    hosted 2 extremely successful Olympic games
    captured Vimy Ridge
    hosted the common wealth aeronodical training base during WWII.
    We have done so much on our own, and I am incredibly offended for you to say otherwise!
    Others introduced other fastest planes of the world.
    Others hosted the most successful expo. Or simply another successful expo.
    Others hosted 2 very successful Olympic Games as well.
    Others captured other places in other battles in other wars.
    Others hosted the Commonwealth training base in other times.
    Others did similar stuff.

    Just to see, none of these is unique, none of these makes any civ a good candidate for the Nth position.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HOBrFINCl View Post
    Oh yah, we've only introduced universal health care
    What do you mean, lots of countries have universal health care. If by 'introduced' you mean that Canada were the first to have it, the UK have this over 30 years before Canada. And Germany arguably had it even earlier.

    peace keepers
    Have you looked at the UN Data? While its true to say that in the early 90's they contributed a significant number of personnel, despite a rise in the number of troops Canada contributed, due to the absolute increase in the total number of personnel, Canada's contribution dropped to 56th by 2009. Hardly an impressive figure. In fact, in terms of military personnel, Ghana contributes more, so you could ask where's Ghana if you were so inclined.

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    equilibrium

    This is fairly one-sided.
    1) You speak about the Volgan Bolgars and Duna Bolgars as if they were one.
    2) The Bolgars speak one of the Slavic languages. Not the Slavs took the Bolgar language, nor the Bolgars the Slav language. They are just one and the same (I mean the Bolgars are just-another-slav-nation).
    3) Everything that is Slavic is Bolgar, according to your post. E.g. the Russians and Polish are Bolgars.
    4) The Bolgars stopped the Ottomans. Maybe the Polish, but rather the Hungarians and Austrians.
    5) Bulgaria destroyed the Roman Empire! Maybe the German tribes, but not any Slavic! Maybe the Goths, the Langobards (Lombards), the Vandals, but not anything that is Slavic.
    6) Bulgaria stopped the Arab invasion. a) The KHAN was ... so it was ruled by the Tatars (1240-17th century). b) Where the hell did they fight Arabs?
    7) The 3 seas. Baltic, Black, Adrian? Well, not really. A panslav (or Bolgar...) empire that was this big never exsisted.
    8) Where you got this stupidity? I hope not in school, else I start to be afraid of the neighbours of Hungary.

    BtW, ever heard of Hungary? Or Magyar?
    I guess you only know that they are the barbarians who pillaged most of West Europe, and they were beaten in 933 by the Byzantines. And damn them they took the Carpathian Basin from the glorious Bolgars...

  27. #27
    HOBrFINCl

    As a fellow Canuck I'd be amused to see us in the game, but quite frankly we don't amount to a civ yet.
    -I'm pretty sure the Soviets beat us to universal health care (yes it is a commie idea, but it's still a good one)
    -Peacekeeping was actually a British idea, but because of political issue they could introduce to the UN themselves (namely they were the agressors and needed an honourable way out) and so they handed the idea of to Lester B Pearson.
    -we gave up the Arrow as a matter of foreign policy, again a case of us having our chain jerked about by stronger states
    -Olympics ya other do that too
    -Vimy was a good fight (and makes an impressive memmorial), so was Ypres II, Passendael, and the 100 Days. But lots of nations win battles, the only wars we might be able to claim we won was 1812 and a couple of rebellions against the BRITISH crown.
    --If you want to extend the list into WWII we also took our beach effectively on D-Day and were only held back from our objective because another nation couldn't keep up *ahem* Also note when we declared war realtive to our neighbours.
    -as for independence, take a look at a loony sometime and ask yourself why a non-resident's face is on it.

    Simply put, for most of Canadian history it has been a territory of another state. We have done some cool things, but we are frequently manipulated by more powerful states. If one must pick the top 9 civilizations of all time, I'm afraid Canada does not stack up next to the Persian, the Chinese, and even the Songhai/Mali (who deserve more credit than they receive on this forum). Never fear though, I'm sure someone will produce a mod soon after release. So Mackenzie King will again rule the world (if Mother allows)

  28. #28
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    Post

    As much as I love my neighbors to the North (Canada) I dont think they deserve a place to be one of the Original Civs in the game. In scenarios and mods for WW1 or WW2 or a current day scenario they should be represented. I think the Iroquois should be replaced by the Mayans as this should be a no-brainer, right? The Songhai should be replaced by the Ethiopians. I definitely think Spain and Scandinavia deserve to be in the game but there is simply no place for them in the original Civ 5. That's what the expansion pack is for. The reason there is no central eastern European Civ is because there hasn't been a nation that has controlled that area long enough. They would be too similar to Russia, anyway.

  29. #29
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    Conservative American

    Yes, every Central European civ is too similar to Russia (for being Slavic) except for Hungary.
    The Hungarians are actually aliens of a kind, as they are not of Indoeuropean culture and everything.

    Once a great american scientist (perhaps Oppenheimer?) said when he was asked about UFOs and aliens:
    They do exist, and they are already among us. They call themselves Hungarians.
    From Civ point of view: they have the Carpathian Basin under their control for more than a millennia (~900 - now) and are an interesting culture (for their difference from any nearby culture).

  30. #30
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    Okay so maybe Hungary could be added in a future add-on

  31. #31
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    LoL @ Canada

    Vikings should be there ... It has been sayd that even the Russians come from them and the British have been ruled by them... They formed many riverside towns in northern, eastern and central Europe... The word Russia comes from Rusi which is a viking from Sweden correct if wrong ( Russia doesnt agree )... Finnish people still call Sweden=Ruotsi

    Spain should be there it has ruled an Empire where the sun didnt set which was only slightly smaller than British Empire

    I think Österrich-Hungary would have been great enough from Eastern Europe att least far better than Bulgary...

    And Canada with its many Wars etc =)))))))))) Really you have had Olympicks =)))))

    Personally I would have liked smthg like 50 civs or so but you cant always win can you...

  32. #32
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    OK, so I'm a partisan

    I always wait until my beloved Celts are added before buying the latest versions.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marthieu du Blois View Post
    Others introduced other fastest planes of the world.
    Others hosted the most successful expo. Or simply another successful expo.
    Others hosted 2 very successful Olympic Games as well.
    Others captured other places in other battles in other wars.
    Others hosted the Commonwealth training base in other times.
    Others did similar stuff.

    Just to see, none of these is unique, none of these makes any civ a good candidate for the Nth position.
    And many of these other countries are in the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loren View Post
    HOBrFINCl

    As a fellow Canuck I'd be amused to see us in the game, but quite frankly we don't amount to a civ yet.
    -I'm pretty sure the Soviets beat us to universal health care (yes it is a commie idea, but it's still a good one)
    -Peacekeeping was actually a British idea, but because of political issue they could introduce to the UN themselves (namely they were the agressors and needed an honourable way out) and so they handed the idea of to Lester B Pearson.
    -we gave up the Arrow as a matter of foreign policy, again a case of us having our chain jerked about by stronger states
    -Olympics ya other do that too
    -Vimy was a good fight (and makes an impressive memmorial), so was Ypres II, Passendael, and the 100 Days. But lots of nations win battles, the only wars we might be able to claim we won was 1812 and a couple of rebellions against the BRITISH crown.
    --If you want to extend the list into WWII we also took our beach effectively on D-Day and were only held back from our objective because another nation couldn't keep up *ahem* Also note when we declared war realtive to our neighbours.
    -as for independence, take a look at a loony sometime and ask yourself why a non-resident's face is on it.

    Simply put, for most of Canadian history it has been a territory of another state. We have done some cool things, but we are frequently manipulated by more powerful states. If one must pick the top 9 civilizations of all time, I'm afraid Canada does not stack up next to the Persian, the Chinese, and even the Songhai/Mali (who deserve more credit than they receive on this forum). Never fear though, I'm sure someone will produce a mod soon after release. So Mackenzie King will again rule the world (if Mother allows)
    Okay, we may not be one of the super powers of history, but we're 143 years old in 2 days... I'm simply saying in MY opinion we deserve an empire. If there are some empires which died out after one or two centuries, we're standing the test of time. However as a Canadian I hope that you can at least agree that Canada has done fantastic things on their own, which was questioned in another poster. (And I laughed so hard at your King comment!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative American View Post
    As much as I love my neighbors to the North (Canada) I dont think they deserve a place to be one of the Original Civs in the game. In scenarios and mods for WW1 or WW2 or a current day scenario they should be represented.
    I agree that this is fair... However in Civ 4, we are represented (in a mod scenario) by a poorly pixelated map of Canada, with the only leader "Prime Minister King" with no special units, or buildings! I understand there are pressures of time, but we did in fact contribute enough to at least deserve an Empire that has SOME benefits to being them! However including us in a scenario I believe is a fair enough concept.

    __________________________________________________ _______________

    So based on this forum I guess I'll be praying for a mod. Canadians are a rich culture by ourselves (not linked to Britain). And I am a proud Canadian, and will always be proud to be a Canadian and how much we have accomplished in such a short history.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by HOBrFINCl View Post
    And I am a proud Canadian, and will always be proud to be a Canadian and how much we have accomplished in such a short history.
    This is the stem of the problem.

    Others on this forum are not proud Canadians, and so they can judge Canada with a saner mind.

    I don't say that you or any Canadian isn't sane otherwise, I just say that everyone (non-Canadians as well) has such a national pride that makes him blind to the cold facts. That speak against his civ.

    As this is a part of the education systems, and seems to be a desired effect, I admit that it is well as it is... but not in a Civ forum. There people should overcome their pride being of this-and-that civ, and focus on the accomplishments that might make the devs consider his civ. Nationalist flaming doesn't make your civ into the game (and is forbidden).

    There's a juridical phrase for this that I don't know, but its core is this:
    You can't judge over a situation you are included in (this is used to the witnesses).

  35. #35
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    No to Canada

    There are more Native Americans in Canada than "Canadians". Who by the way are still a British Commonwealth Province. Their government still has the Queen of England as their sovereign.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avenger762 View Post
    There are more Native Americans in Canada than "Canadians". Who by the way are still a British Commonwealth Province. Their government still has the Queen of England as their sovereign.
    What!? I definitely have to question the truth of this statement. Maybe I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure there are more Canadians than native Americans. I didn't see one native american when I was in Canada.

  37. #37
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    Native Americans in Canada

    You must not have gone anywhere in Canada, because they're everywhere. 90% of "Canadians" live within 100 miles of the US border. Canada is a large country.

  38. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Avenger762 View Post
    You must not have gone anywhere in Canada, because they're everywhere. 90% of "Canadians" live within 100 miles of the US border. Canada is a large country.

    there are probably more Canadians in Toronto than there are native americans in Canada

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by kandel1984 View Post
    The only thing they've gotten is spaniards are not going to buy this version, and we weill wait till the next one...
    I was thinking that too. Though you can view the Civ 5 website in Spanish, which is silly being as theirs is such an unimportant culture

  40. #40
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    Spain was far more important than England, at least up until Elizabeth 1 and the tactical blunders of the Spanish Armada.

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