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Thread: Differences between Civ V 32 bit and 64 bit versions

  1. #1
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    Differences between Civ V 32 bit and 64 bit versions

    I am using Windows 7 Home Premium 64 bit operating system. Will I see any differences versus those who use the 32 bit systems?

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    I presume you might see some perfomance improvements, but certanly nothing inside the game.

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    No. There is no difference.

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    Do we even have confirmation that there is a separate 64bit build?

    I remember a thread about someone wanting 64bit support and I thought it was hinted that their would be a 64bit build. For myself, I can't see the point. If Civ5 is going to routinely need/use more than 4G of memory then there are a whole bunch of people who are going to be really disappointed in the game. If it isn't going to use huge amounts of memory, then there's not much point in a 64bit build (I'm assuming that the civ5 engine doesn't do a lot of double precision arithmetic. From what I remember, most of the math is done in int/long precision).

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    Well. 64 bit computing is always faster than 32 bit, 4 gb memory or not. You can compare them just as you would compare 16 bit and 32 bit computing.
    That is, of course, if you are old enough to remember 16 bit computing.
    Last edited by saksingj; 08-01-2010 at 10:47 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by saksingj View Post
    Well. 64 bit computing is always faster than 32 bit, 4 gb memory or not. You can compare them just as you would compare 16 bit and 32 bit computing.
    That is, of course, if you are old enough to remember 16 bit computing.
    I am old enough to remember 16 bit and 32 bit computing and it's not the same. There were far more significant changes to the instruction set debuted in the 80386 than we see in AMD64 or x64. Running in 32bit mode allowed for drastically improved file access and noticeably faster memory access. These are probably the two operations which have the most direct impact on user-perceived execution speed.

    When running on a 64 bit processor, the main advantages that 64bit code has (outside a larger address space) are the ability to gain access to a few extra registers and the ability to use some 64bit instructions for performing multiplication and division on doubles and (64bit) longs. Short of that, the instructions are (pretty much) the same and take the same time to execute. So, if you're encoding video, doing lots of vector math, or streaming data through a small processing pipeline (SIMD-style), then you're going to see a speed up using 64bit code.

    Of course, you'll also be forced to use 64bit pointers and that means that your binary image gets bigger, you fit less of your code in the cache, and you generate more page faults if your memory is insufficient to hold the image in physical memory. With Java (a very pointer-heavy language) I estimated a 20-40% increase in memory usage by moving to a 64bit JVM. That increase in usage took more CPU power to handle and even with an application that did some floating point math, the end user benchmarks were lower on the 64bit JVM. Now, the decrease was something like 0.5%, but that would be my point. Even with C decreasing pointer usage, the benefits just don't end up producing that much of a difference.

    Thus, in the real world, the primary reason for using 64bit compilation is to allow for memory usage beyond the 3-4GB limit you'll see on 32bit architecture. If you're short of that limitation, there just isn't much to gain (or to lose, in truth).

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    Problems with 32 bit programs on a 64 bit platorm.

    I have a Windows 7 Home Premium 64 bit platform. Half of my 32 bit applications no longer run. That is the real reason I would NEED a 64 bit version.

    My system came without an XP 32 bit virtual machine. Windows 7 64 bit Enterpise comes with that virtual machine but is more expensive. Business users at least have the option to run the old programs in that virtual machine at added cost.

    Some of the reasons half my applications have failed: wrong version of C++; requires MS Net Framework 1 which is incompatibe with MS Net Framework 4; does not run from the 64 bit program directory; path is incompatible with Windows 7.

    Plus, there are many more which simply do not run and do not give a reason. For example, any program which changes file flags requires Administrative permission EVERY time they run. Its simply not worth it to even use those programs.

    Thus, if I don't see on this forum after the Civ 5 release that a 64 bit version was included, I won't buy this program. There is no point in purchasing an incompatible program and LOSING the money.

    Most of my business software have 64 bit compitible programs and DLL files. They all run perfectly. I simply stopped using the other ones. Most of them are very old in any event.
    Last edited by SirMaru; 08-02-2010 at 03:19 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SirMaru View Post
    I have a Windows 7 Home Premium 64 bit platform. Half of my 32 bit applications no longer run. That is the real reason I would NEED a 64 bit version.
    This isn't because of 32-bit/64-bit compilation. IA32 is a subset of the AMD64/IA64/x64 instruction set. Thus, all 32 bit applications will execute on 64 bit processors. However, it doesn't guarantee that they will execute without errors.

    Thus: if you have 32 bit applications that don't run, it's the fault of the developers and their desire to not adhere to standards and to take shortcuts that are not supported by the documented usage of the operating system.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirMaru View Post
    Some of the reasons half my applications have failed: wrong version of C++;
    This is the fault of the developer for either requiring a specific version of the C++ runtime (or c++ standard libraries) or by hard-coding a library location that should not be hard coded.

    Fault: Developer, for not adhering to library resolution standards.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirMaru View Post
    requires MS Net Framework 1 which is incompatibe with MS Net Framework 4;
    This is a simple out-dated application problem. There are loads of apps you can't run on 64 bit machines because they required DirectX 5. The problem isn't that 64 bit machines can't handle DirectX 5, or that DirectX 5 only works in 32-bit mode, but that DirectX 5 is so old that it isn't available for new operating systems, whether they are 32 or 64 bit native.

    Fault: Developer, for not updating their app to follow standard library progression.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirMaru View Post
    does not run from the 64 bit program directory; path is incompatible with Windows 7.
    Both are the same problem. Since the creation of Win32, there have been API calls that tell applications how to traverse the filesystem and what points of the filesystem provide specific functionality. Any application that hard-codes its location as "C:\Program Files\MyApp" is doing it wrong. These locations should be resolved symbolically. The same thing happened with loads of badly coded apps that assumed the "Windows" directory would always be called "Windows", even when Windows 2000 named it "WINNT".

    Fault: Developer, for hard-coding locations and refusing to adhere to operating system standards.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirMaru View Post
    For example, any program which changes file flags requires Administrative permission EVERY time they run. Its simply not worth it to even use those programs.
    They only need administrative privileges if they are changing flags on files owned by the administrator or system. If this is what they are doing, then you should need to run with elevated privileges. This is called a real (debatable) security model and the previous lack of one was the reason why Windows was (and still is) the most insecure operating system family.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirMaru View Post
    (Out of order quote)Most of my business software have 64 bit compitible programs and DLL files. They all run perfectly.
    No, most of your business software is made by companies with developers who are good and have to adhere to standards and guidelines in order to make money.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirMaru View Post
    Thus, if I don't see on this forum after the Civ 5 release that a 64 bit version was included, I won't buy this program. There is no point in purchasing an incompatible program and LOSING the money.
    Before you go off and make rash decisions, please take some time to educate yourself instead of making assumptions based on your past experiences. All of the failure modes you listed before were caused by developers who were sloppy and completely failed to adequately test their products.

    If Firaxis releases a 32-bit Civ5 (and I am 75% certain that is the only version they'll release), then you can be absolutely certain that they already tested it on a 64-bit version of Windows 7. Every developer who has any talent knows that Win7-64 is the majority target for the next two years. Unlike the rest of the apps you've had problem with, Civ5 is being made by a company that actually has a decent QA process.

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    Excellent response

    That response to my 64 bit program need was excellent.

    However, to be sure I don't waste the purchase price, I'll wait to see how other owners of 64 bit platforms experience Civ V before I make my purchase.

    If they get a smooth run, I'll buy it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SirMaru View Post
    That response to my 64 bit program need was excellent.

    However, to be sure I don't waste the purchase price, I'll wait to see how other owners of 64 bit platforms experience Civ V before I make my purchase.

    If they get a smooth run, I'll buy it.
    Absolutely. If you're not one of those people who has to have the game on release day, then this is definitely what you should do. Not only will you know whether the game is worth buying, but if you do decide to buy the game and there are still issues, then the fixes will probably already be posted on the forums.

    How about this: I've already pre-ordered the game. I'll be getting in on release day. I have Vista-64 installed (less compatible with 32-bit apps than Windows 7). Please feel free to PM me about my experience with it. I have several non-standard things on my machine (not running off C:, mixed UAC settings, etc). If it runs well for me, you shouldn't have any troubles. I would absolutely be willing to answer whatever other questions you'd have at the time, too.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by SirMaru View Post
    That response to my 64 bit program need was excellent.

    However, to be sure I don't waste the purchase price, I'll wait to see how other owners of 64 bit platforms experience Civ V before I make my purchase.

    If they get a smooth run, I'll buy it.
    well if the rumors of a demo coming pre-launch, although they havent before, you will be able to try it then.

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    Somebody in one of the interviews (the subject was performance and scalability) talked specifically about a 64-bit version being worked on. I assume from the context of the conversation that it was planned to be released along with the 32-bit version, but I don't think that was explicitly said.

    Sorry that I don't have a direct link to provide for this.

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    @slowtarget

    Did you pre-order yours from Steam (or is it Valve?)? There seems to be something about getting two extra civs by doing that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liberal View Post
    @slowtarget

    Did you pre-order yours from Steam (or is it Valve?)? There seems to be something about getting two extra civs by doing that.
    no, that's Direct2Drive and it gives you the first two DLC civ for free

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowBadass View Post
    well if the rumors of a demo coming pre-launch, although they havent before, you will be able to try it then.
    It was already stated that a 64 bit version would not come unitl after the games launch, at an unspecified date.

    But it was revealed in the 100th Polycast espisode, by either Dennis or Barry that there is offically going to be a demo before release. Of course it would make sense that this is a 32bit demo not the 64bit.

    CS

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liberal View Post
    @slowtarget

    Did you pre-order yours from Steam (or is it Valve?)? There seems to be something about getting two extra civs by doing that.
    Yup, I pre-ordered on Steam (which means that Valve is the "retailer"). And I don't get two extra civs, just the one and the Mesopotamia map pack.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slowtarget View Post
    Yup, I pre-ordered on Steam (which means that Valve is the "retailer"). And I don't get two extra civs, just the one and the Mesopotamia map pack.
    Don't mean to press you, slowtarget. You've already been the most informative guy on the board about this stuff. But why didn't you buy from D2D so you could have 2 instead of 1? Does Steam give you, like, a blackmark or something for buying from someone else? Is D2D unreliable? Sorry for dumb questions, but buying unboxed software is new to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liberal View Post
    Don't mean to press you, slowtarget. You've already been the most informative guy on the board about this stuff. But why didn't you buy from D2D so you could have 2 instead of 1? Does Steam give you, like, a blackmark or something for buying from someone else? Is D2D unreliable? Sorry for dumb questions, but buying unboxed software is new to me.
    I'm pretty sure that 2K Greg has said that the D2D DLC is free for everyone who preorders Civ V, but I don't know for sure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liberal View Post
    Don't mean to press you, slowtarget. You've already been the most informative guy on the board about this stuff. But why didn't you buy from D2D so you could have 2 instead of 1?
    D2D hadn't announced they were selling it? I was lazy? I guess there isn't any reason in particular. I have Steam installed and I knew I wanted to buy the game and it was just easy?

    The point here would be: I didn't pick to buy from Steam for any reasons that really apply to you or anyone else. Don't take my choice as some sort of suggestion or recommendation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Liberal View Post
    Does Steam give you, like, a blackmark or something for buying from someone else?
    Absolutely not. They don't really have any reason to care. They still get a cut of the sales (see note below), and they still get what they really want: another game purchase/installed user. For every game that people purchase and use via Steam, it increases the likelihood they'll buy another one. (For example: Me) This is really the only way that a one-time-fee subscription is sustainable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Liberal View Post
    Is D2D unreliable?
    No, not at all. D2D is fine and many people who have ethical issues with Steam will find D2D to be much more appealing (except in this case, where they are just selling Steam activation codes). I've bought a couple games from D2D and had no problems with them. The website was mediocre at the time, but they've improved it and the service itself is fine. The only real downside to D2D is that patching some games requires special patches from D2D. If the patch is critical or adds cool stuff, it can be annoying to have to wait a week or two for them to put it out.

    For Civ5, though, the only possible difference I see would be that D2D buyers may or may not be able to pre-register their copies and thus may or may not (respectively) be able to participate in the suspected Steam pre-loading. The only thing that pre-loading saves you is the slightly longer download times you should expect as thousands of people download/update/authenticate against the Steam servers on release day.

    If you're buying after release: It won't really matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Liberal View Post
    Sorry for dumb questions, but buying unboxed software is new to me.
    No problem. Ask away. I'll tell you whatever I know, and try to be clear about what I don't. I know you're not the only one here who has questions about digital distribution.

    As I've said before: For some reason I feel compelled to try and help people understand this new distribution method so they can make the correct choice for themselves. Maybe I feel like I have some obligation to the Civ community that has helped me out for the last 18 years or so. Maybe I'm building karma. I know I'm not getting paid (though I have been accused of it).

    Boring note about sales: Usually, digital distributors give higher cuts of the sales to developers. Mostly this is because they have so much lower overhead and operating costs. From what I've seen in the near-past, Steam seems to offer developers a slightly higher percentage of the sale than the other big digital distributors. This is probably due to the economy of volume and some olde fashioned gambling which has paid off. Second hand digital distribution, such as when D2D sells Steam titles, are usually slightly different as a secondary contract needs to be set up between Steam and D2D. Steam still gets its cut of the sale, as does D2D. 2K/Firaxis will get its cut, of course, but its probably less than what they get on direct Steam sales.

    Now, the more important question: Should this affect my decision on where I buy the game? Absolutely not (in my opinion). If you have some moral desire to make sure that 2K/Firaxis gets the most money from your purchase, then buying from Steam is probably the way to go. If you just want to play the game, then buy wherever you want. If some place has a sale, or is shipping cooler goodies, then by all means, buy from them.

    Wow. With that, we're significantly far from the original topic. Perhaps a new one is in order if we wish to continue?

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    About 64bit "version" - it will most likely be just another .exe file and all other files will be same for both versions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebel44 View Post
    About 64bit "version" - it will most likely be just another .exe file and all other files will be same for both versions.
    Most games get built with a small collection of .dll files. They usually make it easier for the developer to make the game (modularity keeps the developers from going insane). It also helps reduce the code needed for support .exe's like the map editor.

    So, there would need to be 64-bit versions of all the .exe's and all the .dll's. Of course, to Firaxis, this would just require flipping a switch and waiting 30 minutes or so. So long as Firaxis did their job well, there's no reason that any of the code should need to change. As you said, they wouldn't need to re-do any of the stuff that actually takes loads of time: the models, the textures, the UI elements, the graphics, the sound and the (few) movies.

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    @ slowtarget

    I've been told that there are sites out there superior to this one for getting the latest scoop on Civ V. You know, like screen shots and teaser videos. Even claims of insiders publicizing ostensibly secret aspects of gameplay.

    But for me (and I'm sure many others), YOU are the reason I selected this site, 2K.

    It isn't just that you're so informative. It's also that you're patient. And you go out of your way to make your responses as neutral and without bias as is humanly possible. It is embarrassing to come at all this without the slightest bit of understanding. It is the most delightful serendipity to come across a person who empathizes with those of us who were just... lost.

    Knowing what little I do of you, you will be embarrassed by this praise. But you deserve it, and there is a moral compulsion that it be offered to you.

    Thanks for being here. With utmost respect,

    Lib

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by EnigmaCode View Post
    I'm pretty sure that 2K Greg has said that the D2D DLC is free for everyone who preorders Civ V, but I don't know for sure.
    Actually, I think it's the reverse.

    Various retailers have special offers. In the case of D2D, they don't have a special exclusive offer, they have "the first DLC that comes will be free from us". So, everyone will pay for that DLC, except the D2D customers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ukerric View Post
    Various retailers have special offers. In the case of D2D, they don't have a special exclusive offer, they have "the first DLC that comes will be free from us". So, everyone will pay for that DLC, except the D2D customers.
    Hmm, perhaps. Well, 2K Greg said that he's putting up a page that contains all the details on the various DLCs out there, so we'll see.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liberal View Post
    But for me (and I'm sure many others), YOU are the reason I selected this site, 2K.
    Er... well... thanks.

    Of course, in the interest of honesty, I'll admit that I spend time over at CivFanatics, too. I just post here more often because CF has plenty of people who are already providing the same information I've got. And, of course, your view that CF is chaotic and not quite as welcoming for new or out-of-the-loop visitors is probably spot on.

    If nothing else, anyone who's seriously interested in the Civ series should at least occasionally peruse CF or WePlayCiv. After a while your brain figures out how to find the signal in the noise and you can get some really good insight into the game. So, if you want to interact with modders, read detailed analysis of hardcore strategies, or hear the secret rumors, then CF is where you really want to be. If you're trying to figure out if Civ is for you, or if your computer can handle it, or if Steam is something you want to avoid, or "newbie" questions, you may get a better response here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Liberal View Post
    It is the most delightful serendipity to come across a person who empathizes with those of us who were just... lost.
    I've never tried to portray myself as some gaming guru. I can empathize with you because its not that far of a journey. What I'm really good at is software development and operating systems. Games are a hobby that I force upon myself (it's really hard, some days) to make sure I never stop having fun with computers. Believe me, I feel as sheepish around the Starcraft II forums as you probably did when you started posting here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Liberal View Post
    Thanks for being here. With utmost respect,
    No problem. Thanks for making me feel appreciated. It's not a requirement, but it does make helping people a little easier.

  26. #26
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    Will the 32 bit and 64 bit versions ship together?

    Does anyone have any information on this? I use both, Windows 7 64 and 32 bit on different computers and would like to play Civ 5 on both.

    It would be nice to have access to both versions when buying the game (Win 7 also shipped with both versions in the box). No clue how this would work with Steam, though? Would it auto-detect my OS version and always install the 64 bit version on a 64 bit system for example?

    Cheers...

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    Yeah, steam would autodetect whether your OS is x86-32 or x86-64, part of their evil hardware inspection

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    this is an old thread but the subject could use some thought.

    I have an interesting observation. I have Dell XPS 410 with 2gb RAM and 1.8 Gz processor, 256mb graphics. For some reason I have 2 OS installed. windows xp 32 and windows xp 64. I play civ 5 fine with these specs. maybe hard to believe, but it actually plays well with the "minimum requirements" that 2k lists. Most display settings I keep at med or low.

    I play civ5 in both OS's. on 32bit it uses 650mb RAM, on 64bit it uses 1000mb. strange. for both OS's it uses 50% cpu. I think this is because my CPU is two cores and civ5 only can use 1...

    performance seems equal except 1 detail. Some of the leader screen animations with fire, like montezuma and Askia, are choppy and do not display well on 32bit. On 64bit they display well. that is the big mystery. the downside to this is that I have to boot into 64bit to play civ5. 64bit xp never really got good software support, so it is very bad with what I do on the computer. and all my programs are on the 32bit OS.

    So... any comments? any guesses what causes the RAM usage variation and the leader screen differences?

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