They kind of cheat, and use pre-rendered objects to make it look like a 3d rendered environment, when a lot of it actually isn't. It would make perfect sense for Starcraft 2 to be lighter on your system.
They kind of cheat, and use pre-rendered objects to make it look like a 3d rendered environment, when a lot of it actually isn't. It would make perfect sense for Starcraft 2 to be lighter on your system.
It's kind of sad really.
This is pure unadulterated fact. The worst a game can do is load your GPU to 100%. Since it goes through the abstraction layers of the directX libraries even if the 2k guys were incompetent morons (which I am convinced they are not), there is nothing they could have done wrong to cause hardware to overheat itself.
I'm not saying there aren't faults here. Yes, the game is more GPU intensive than we expected, probably due to heavy tesselation use. If the frame rate limiting comments are true (I haven't experienced it, but I am told with Vsync off, menu screens can go up to 900fps) This is something that should get fixed. (for now, leave vsync on. Why would you turn it off anyway?)
Even with all of this going on, the worst it can do is load your GPU to 100%, and if your hardware can't handle a 100% load, then there is something wrong with it, not with the software.
What are game developers supposed to do? Stop developing newer more advanced games just so they don't load your hardware? That is ridiculous.
It's even possible that a generation of video cards were poorly designed from a cooling persective or failed to take into consideration the impact of tesselated graphics. But I that is the case it is your video cad manufacturers flaw, not the software. As unlikely as the above statement is, it is more likely to be true than that software can kill your hardware.
In modern consumer computers and operating systems Software CAN NOT kill hardware, unless there is an underlying fault in the hardware to begin with. (like defective video card, poor cooling, etc.)
It is simply not possible.
I encourage you all to contact your video card or computer manufacturers. Hopefully your warranty is not expired.
All software can do is load your computer to levels it should be able to handle anyway. If it can't handle those levels its not the softwares fault.
When overclockers test their systems to check if they are still stable after their modifications, they use special tools to intentionally load their CPU's (prime95) or GPUs (furmark) to 100% and make them as hot as possible. if the system is still stable after several hours of full load, then they know their modifications worked.
The same rationale should go for unmodified stock hardware. If it can't handle hours and hours of running at full loads then there is somehting wrong with the hardware, not with the software that provides that load.
If I spill coffee - a beverage that is scaldingly hot by its very nature - on myself, then I'll curse and scream, but I won't blame anyone else for my misfortune because I know coffee is hot, and I'm the moron that spilled it. I blame ME.
I'm sorry, there is simply no defense for this crap.
Problem here is what is Civ 5 doing ? ITs not the point that card should stand even 100% load but why isnt the game giving the card from time to time room to breathe? What is it calculating?
Its like a car guzzeling 20 gallons every 5 minutes regardless of moving or not.
In a FPS game like Half Life or the quake series, even if you are not moving, standing still just looking at a wall, the engine is still pumping out as many frames per second as it can.
In the case of Civ 5 it does appear that then engine has a strangely high max framerate, which casues the video card to run away on low details screens like menus (if vsync is off), but even if it does this the graphics hardware should be able to handle it without crashing or frying.
I'm not privy to test cases for GPU engineers and their MTBF specifications. But in the real-world, GPU fans for mass market cards are typically low quality, with cheap bearings. (source: Me). So... follow me:
Given: Fans operating sub-nominally contribute to failure of the component they are designed to protect.
A cursory google search nets me a figure of MTBF of 20k hours for stock GPU cooling fans. While googling for this post, I found high-end after-market coolers rated for 70k hours. But I can't anticipate this as being a commonly-installed component, at least not common enough to be very relevant to the majority of Civ V players.
Following along with some of my theory-craft, for a game that will be played by one million people for one hour per player (ever), it would be a fair estimate that ~50 players (1,000,000 / 20,000 hours played) will blow their cards while playing this game. That might mean 50 different angry posts. And you'd need to ramp up those numbers as you increase either the number of players or the number of hours played in the aggregate.
Expect posts from people that the game burninated their GPU. From one perfectly valid viewpoint, it will. Finally, this post discusses just one potential and relevant point of failure. There are others, and those others may raise up estimates given above.Civ IV sold over 3 million units by March 2008 (Take-Two Interactive). Civ III sold "millions" (Firaxis). The Civ series, prior to the launch of Civ V, sold over 9 million units (Metacritic). Many players will be playing Civ V for more than one hour, and Civ V will sell more than 1 million units. (Me)
Mattlach: It is an admirable quality to be responsible for your own actions. I would think you agree that it would be an admirable quality in a corporation as well.McDonalds ... held its coffee at between 180 and 190 degrees fahrenheit ...Other establishments sell coffee at substantially lower temperatures, and coffee served at home is generally 135 to 140 degrees.
McDonalds coffee, at the temperature at which it was poured into styrofoam cups, was not fit for consumption because it would burn the mouth and throat.
McDonalds ... showing more than 700 claims by people burned by its coffee between 1982 and 1992. Some claims involved third-degree burns... This history documented McDonalds' knowledge about the extent and nature of this hazard.
Last edited by Aesir Rising; 10-01-2010 at 03:35 PM.
I had a very similar experience with a 9800 GT, which is the same exact card as the 8800 GT (it was rebranded during the launch of the 9800 cards to avoid confusion since the 8800 was the same architecture).
To certain posters who essentially want to blame the messenger here, I can only say that I feel sorry for you that you derive pleasure from pendantic musings on a message board.
I have played dozens of games on this same setup without incident, including notorious resource hogs such as Crysis. The computer exceeds all minimum specs listed on the Civ V website and box.
For this to be happening is inexcusable. It would be one thing if we were blowing up hardware by playing a game that had warned us we did not meet the requirements, but we are not. At a minimum this is a case of false advertising by the makers of this product, which in reality requires more powerful hardware to run safely.
I was running into overheating problems very early on.
I changed my GPU fan profile to increase 1% in speed for every degree C that the GPU increased rather than the huge jumped every 10C in the normal fan profile.
I'm running at 1920x1200 with everything set at high and stay around 65C on the GPU.
The card is a GTX260 which I slightly overclock.
I should also note that my GPU does not run at 100% when playing Civ. My guess is that much of the overheating is on cards that are running 100% to keep up with the game.
You're wasting your time, Aesir. Corporate responsibility and those responsibilities of the developer to test their products thoroughly have no bearing on this conversation. We are clearly the ones responsible.
Just in case anyone needed another person to post their card/issue while looking for a fix, i also have a 9800gt and experience the crash (overheating?). Around 1905 in a huge world, normal game length.
Just registered to say:
1) i have the same problem of overheating and crashing. Macbook Pro Late 2008, Nvidia 9600M, Windows XP. Plays for a couple of hours and then crashes.
2) it's going to be pretty funny to see mattlach's reaction when the problem is patched.
Thus far, it appears to be a problem that nVidia 8800GT or 9800GT cards have with Civ 5 (and no other software title), despite the fact that they are listed by 2K as above recommended requirements. Is there anyone with a 8800 or 9800 who has not had a overheating issue? Is there anyone with a different card that is having the heating issue?
As for me, I replaced my fried 8800GT with a 460STX and have had no overheating issues whatsoever since then. This new card is in the same computer -- the only thing that is different is the card. It's amazing to me if a software title can destroy specific hardware this way. I've never heard of such a thing. But if this thread and the various threads at Civfanatics and on Amazon are any indication, it is a widespread problem.
I'm saving my toasted 8800GT, just in case 2K wants me to send it to them... Not likely, I know.
The GPU was defective from Nvidia.
Try taking yours to the apple store and they will fix it for you for free whether you have AppleCare or not.
Hve you even read what I have written?
Last edited by mattlach; 10-02-2010 at 10:11 AM.
i don't know what to tell about..
the game crash random after one second or one hour of game, full screen, windowed, dx9, dx10/11, maximum details, minimum details... tried anything..
the trouble is that not only the game crash, but also reboot my pc, so any time i have to:
wait for bios
wait for seven
wait for loading civ 5
wait for loading save game (if i had the accuracy to make one a little bit before crash)
hope that the game resist more than few minutes
play (maybe ten seconds, maybe half an hour)
for me is clearly something to do with vga, i ear the vga fan speed up immediately before crash, but i think that my configuration is a lot better than civ 5 require
4gb ddr2 1066 Geil
Zotac GTX 480
2 WD raptor raid 0
Syncmaster 245b @ 1920*1200
Os: Seven 64bit
i have already updated video card driver, .net, phisyx driver, directx, the game with patch, ecc..
the only "report" i could have is Seven registry error: "Event 41, Kernel-Power", something related to power supply line. this is another reason that make me think about troubles when the video card is used a lot by civ 5
for me the game is really unplayable, i'm sorry for this because, for what i have touched, is amazing, but i have stopped to play because of this hardware problem
obviusly this happen only playing civ 5 and not with any other games..
sorry for my bad english, i really understand that the mine are words to the wind and not a satisfability request of help, that is impossible to have despite have bought the game, but is really frustrating....
Last edited by yume; 10-02-2010 at 08:41 AM.
Did you mean a 460GTX — the NVidia card — rather than STX? If so, did you get the 1 gig or the 768 meg? Thanks.
Your English is fine. You make fewer mistakes in grammar than many American college students.
Last edited by Liberal; 10-02-2010 at 08:42 AM.
I just checked, and the GTX460 consumes about 60 watts at idle, and about 160 watts under full load. This requires a power supply for the whole computer of about 450 watts.
Could it be that some of the overheating issues are caused by insufficient power supplies?
I just wanted to say that I had overheating problems. I had an ATI (AMD) Radeon HD 4850 512MB card stock in my Dell Studio XPS system. System has a Core i7 processor, 6GB RAM and I run on 2048x1152 screen resolution.
After playing the game for no longer than 5 mins I would Alt+Tab to the Catalyst Control Center (software for the ATI drivers) to see the temp of the card and it would get as high as 102 degrees Celsius before blue-screening on me!
Being disappointed in this (and after reading reviews that the 4850 cards run hot) I decided to get a new gfx card. I ordered a Sapphire Vapor-X ATI Radeon HD 5770 1GB card and put that in. Now it only jumps maybe 10-15 degrees Celsius (up to around the low 70s) and stops there, even after playing a couple hours.
Just a possible solution for those who are REALLY intent on playing this game and willing to upgrade their rig.
Dammiit. Really wish I saw this.
After having two video card related issues (screen goes black in the middle of a huge world game) on two different days, I had the same issue happen this time.
The issues only manifested as the game got longer, more tiles showed up.
On DX9 the game was faster but had a lot more texture issues (checkerboards showing up, then going away as I moved the screen around). On DX10/11 the game really crawled and I had texture loading issues (grey textures, filling in).
Now I can't boot into the OS unless it's in safe mode - after multiple repair attempts. I can get up to 1900x1200 in safe mode but not outside of safe mode.
Somehow I'm locked out of my 1920x1200 resolution.
Any idea what's up\how to clear it?
If my GPU's (8800M GTX) fried ... it's and odd kind of fried.
Needless to say I'm uninstalling CiV V ... what a shame.
THe BS defender of 2k post here justifying there ☺☺☺☺ programming is ignorrant tbh. 1. I am on DX9 so I have no tesselation.
2. I had v-sync on
3. never ever had a problem with overheat or crashes before, not the card is fried and it would play any game I put on the comp until civ.
4. PS was not an issue I had over 1k and I used about half of that at most when maxed.
5. Yes the game can screw hardware by putting unnecesary load on the gpu or other hardware components. It was probably using the GPU ram badly or putting stress on the system that it wasnt meant to take.
Also suffering from the same problem:
ATI 5750 1gb of ram
8gb of RAM
Cooling, top mounted stack fan, front loaded case fans with direct cooling pipe over the CPU.
Graphics card has its own fan installed on it, with a coupled bottom drawn fan, so its funneled in from the base of the case, and then piped over the GPU cooler and then out the rear of the case.
Runs fine in various other games and software, except when it comes to late game Civ5. It runs smooth, looks perfect no problems with tiles etc. Once i hit the mid 90's i get freezes, and the very unusual unannounced shutdown (not a BSOD, the machine is setup to power down upon over heat), but its only done this once (Not Civ 5 Related, this was during Austrlaia's black Saturday, and the graphics cards been replaced since then).
It's just unusual that its happening always within the 90s :/
I'll up the speed on the overdrive fan and see if that helps at all (and see if ATI have an updated driver)
I can supply the directx feedback & temp samples (from the GPU, CPU and inlet/outlet sensors) if its of assistance.
Switched to DX9 - GPU gets to no hotter than 42 degrees, outside of that its perfect
Last edited by DrkRaven; 10-03-2010 at 05:59 PM. Reason: additional info
It seems like the Nvidia 8800 (GS, GT and GTX) are getting toast alot!
After my Geforce Nvidia 8800 GS (512 mb) got toast after a few turns I played the game on my other machine (Nvidia 9400n) and I have no problem with heating whatsoever.
Can 2k please look into this? Seems there is a compatibillity issue with Nvidiaa 8800 series
You may want to have a look at this for the Event 41 description: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/2028504
One thing that dropped the temperature 10c for me was to set Tesselation level to Low. I also lowered shadows, water, D.O.F. and some other things that I really don't notice. That dropped the temperature another 10c.
Now, when I am able to play, the temps are around 68-70c but I have to have the fan at 100% constantly. I have a Zalman fan attached, manual control. Normally in most games I can let the fan run on idle. In Crysis dx10, with all the bells and whistles turned on, I can run the fan on 60% and the temperatures are around 70c which is quite acceptable.
Last edited by nightstorms; 10-03-2010 at 06:17 PM.
In a world where graphics hardware doubles in performance ever 9 months, and is more or less obsolete before the 2 year mark, that may or may not have been the best thing to do.
I hope you at least got your upgrades used on ebay to save a buck or two...
They may be able to patch the game to lower some of the GPU utilization and give off less heat. (I hope they don't do this at the cost of visual quality)
That being said, this won't solve the problem. If 100% video card load hoses your system, its only a matter of time before it happens again...
I actually have a suggestion to test and see if its the game or the systems that are causing these problems.
Please perform this test and report back your results:
FurMark is a standard stress test tool for video cards. Any computer considered to have a stable graphics subsystem would have to be able to pass a several hour furmark run without crashing or overheating.1.) Download and install FurMark at the following address:
2.) Run furmark overnight and examine your temps and check for any crashes.
3.) Report back here with your results.
So, if Furmark brings down your system, it's almost definitely a system problem.
If Furmark doesn't bring down your system, but Civ 5 does, then we have confirmed that Civ 5 is the real problem.
Last edited by mattlach; 10-04-2010 at 03:52 AM. Reason: I am the king of typos.
That furmark test will really heat up a graphics card, for me I have to turn up the fan speed on my Nvidia 275 to accomodate for it to keep it running cool enough to prevent driver instability, however for me the game never has exceeded 65°c thus far. If I run my video card fan at 75% (my normal fan speed when playing games) it can run furmark for days and not exceed 65-68°. My point being really though, that some cards don't adjust the fan appropriately to what they need to run at for the activity they are being used at. I know that on my 275, if it's set to manual fan speed it does not adjust up past 40% fan speed which just doesn't let the card cool enough for real gaming use.
Last edited by City Builder; 10-04-2010 at 03:35 AM.
I am using a ATI HD 5870 with Catalyst 10.9.
Also I am using ATI TrayTools 22.214.171.1246 with Enabled FPS Overlay.
I found out that the FPS displayed is really really high.
For e.g. TFT-Display has 60Hz so 60 FPS is just fine. Even in the Civ5 Menu, the FPS is like 1700-1800 !!! Which means the GPU is running on full throttle, rendering like ☺☺☺☺ - for nothing !
That would also explain the overheating problems. Btw. StarCraft 2 had the same problem - which can be fixed by an entry in an .ini limiting the game at 60 FPS.
I am still not able to find out what exactly is causing the problem.
In Civ5 video options in Fullscreen Mode I choose "1920x1080 60Hz". Actually 60Hz doesn't do ☺☺☺☺ ! I think there is a problem from Civ5 applying the correct Hz/FPS.
Chosing Vsync On/Off doesn't make a difference here.
When chosing Window-Mode sometimes the game runs with 60 FPS (which would be correct) but next time the game also runs with like 200, 400, 1700-1800 FPS (which is way to much and the main reason for causing the GPU run at full throttle).
Also trying on Catalyst settings but haven't yet find a safe way to reproduce or fix the overheating problem.
Trying with Catalyst A.I. on/off, Force Refreshrate 60Hz, 3D Refresh Rate Override (Disabled, Same as Desktop, 56Hz, 60Hz) - all with no success.
Would be nice to focus your efforts in this direction.
Actually I can not say if the main problem is Driver or Game related. IMHO I think it is Game related, since NVidia users report the same problem and in SC2 it needs to be fixed in an .ini file, to prevent overheating.
Last edited by Whity2XLC; 10-04-2010 at 04:46 PM.
...adding some technical quotes from SC2 problem you mention here. As described in my post above, the civ5 problem looks pretty much the same. But read yourselves...
*** QUOTE Starts ***
"Certain screens make your hardware work pretty hard. [For example], screens that are light on detail may make your system overheat if cooling is overall insufficient," Blizzard rep "Martyt" wrote in an official Starcraft 2 forum post.
This is because the game has nothing to do so it is primarily just working on drawing the screen very quickly. A temporary workaround is to go to your Documents\StarCraft II\variables.txt file and add these lines:
You may replace these numbers if you want to."
Meanwhile, John Gillooly of PC Authority pointed out that the between-mission scenes - such as those onboard Jim Raynor's ship - weren't properly framerate capped.
"These are fairly static scenes and don't take much work for the graphics card to display them. [But] because of this, the card renders the scene as quickly as possible, which then taxes your card as it works to its full potential," explained Gillooly.
"[Yes], it may sound illogical, but redrawing the same image over and over again can put just as much stress on a graphics processor as running a game like Crysis with everything cranked up. As the pipelines within your graphics card work overtime, the card will heat up and if it can't cope with that heat it will crash."
However, Gillooly noted that graphics card manufacturers typically designed cooling around certain reference temperatures.
"If a card runs hotter than it should, it will throttle back speed or shut down completely to avoid damage. Where this can become a problem is when cooling isn't as efficient as it could be and the graphics card shuts down prematurely.
"Still, the most common cause of overheating is dust. If your computer is designed properly it sucks air in through the front of the case and expels it from the rear and/or the top. With that air comes dust, which builds up inside your case."
As such, Gillooly recommended users routinely open and clean their rig cases with a can of compressed air.
"Once you are rid of [the dust] you'll notice things running a lot smoother...[But this] isn't a failsafe solution - sometimes overheating is just a sign that the product is old and worn out - a fan cannot spin forever after all," he added.
*** Quote Ends ***
Last edited by Whity2XLC; 10-04-2010 at 04:11 PM.
I have a SLI setup and my game freezes on dx10/11, have not tried dx9 yet.
3ghz Core duo, 6GB ram, two 9800GTX in SLI.
I run pretty demanding stuff on this computer, applications and games, CIV5 is the only thing that freezes up.
Please fix your game.
(Also, your game does not even support dual monitors, the mouse pointer wonders off to the other monitor... what kind of crew coded this game?... wtf?)
Additional Info - Meassurements with fixed FPS and without fixed FPS
Load Civ 5 in 1920x1080 to Main-Menu only for 6 Minutes then exit to Windows.
Screenshot 1 shows GPU Temperature with constantly 60 FPS
Screenshot 2 shows GPU Temperature without fixed FPS
I am using Sapphire Radeon HD 5870 with VAPOR-X (Better Cooler as reference design).
So you can judge yourself what is good.
At least it looks here is the problem. People reporting no problems seem to be able to play with fixed FPS so GPU always doesn't run at full throttle. Other people who are reporting heat problems seem to play without fixed FPS so GPU runs at maximum causing more heat, more noise, more power consumtion and of course a lower lifetime of the graphics card.
I still haven't figured out how to set the fixed FPS correctly.
VSync on / off doesn't help for me. Most safe way for me seems to put the game to "windowed mode" instead of "fullscreen". Unfortunately I prefer playing with fullscreen mode.
One is for sure, this needs to be investigated
Last edited by Whity2XLC; 10-04-2010 at 06:58 PM.
Yes yes, I know, I feel like spamming already.... BUT.... what I just found out is quite funny, see screenshots.
Loading Civ5 in 1920x1080 -> no fixed FPS (see screen)
Changed Resolution in Game to 1680x1050 -> fixed FPS at 60 (Oh yeah Baby!)
Changed Resolution in Game to 1400x1050 -> fixed FPS at 60
Changed Resolution in Game to 1280x1024 -> fixed FPS at 60
Changed Resolution in Game back to 1920x1080 -> NO fixed FPS (Crap!)
Note: I didn't restart game between changes or changed any other things.
Probably Displaymode at 1920x1080 is kinda broken !!!
DEVS PLEASE CHECK !!!
IMPORTANT NOTE: *** Check the yellow FPS Display in the TOP RIGHT corner ***
Last edited by Whity2XLC; 10-05-2010 at 05:43 PM.
It would seem to me a temporary workaround would beto just enable vsync.
Why would you ever want to run a strategy game without vsync enabled anyway?
That is interesting. We should do a poll and see how many of the people having issues are using 1920x1080. That being said, this is a 16:9 TV resolution. Most Moitors are 16:10, 1920x1200, right? (at least last time I was shopping for a widescreen LCD this was the case)
This is definitely an efficiency issue that 2K needs to fix.
That being said, it still doesn't pin peoples overheating and hardware failures on 2k. Their hardware should be able to handle full GPU loads. A test with furmark (with vsync off) as suggested above should be able to diagnose a computer with inadequate cooling (or inadequate power to support the video card)
I won't touch the whole argument of 'can a game make a card overheat or not?' That's irrelevant in my eyes. I do feel there is a bug in the game that makes the card work harder than it should and perhaps in my case only using one of the two GPU cores in my video card.
This is what I am experiencing:
- When I first load a save game the titles are screwed up. I am able to "fix" the tiles by zooming in and panning around the surface to force a proper redraw. (Screenshots Below)
- I _always_ get titles that flicker/flash in different spots of the map. Sometimes the flicker moves to another tile but it seems to always be somewhere throughout each game. This does not occur immediately but after playing the game for a short while. Once it appears it doesn't go away until I exit.
- My video card's fan is near 100% when I play this game. Much more graphically intense games do not put the fan at anything more than 50-60% even on a hot summer day with the windows open.
-Latest catalyst drivers
"Screwed Up Tiles" Screenshots:
Last edited by stergil; 10-05-2010 at 02:14 AM.