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Thread: Info on Next Patch (Update 12/9 with ETA!)

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    Info on Next Patch (Update 12/9 with ETA!)

    Greetings Civvers,

    This stickied thread is where I am going to be posting information on the next big patch to Civilization V. It seemed that everyone was a big fan of the running patch notes I did before, so I will be doing it again, starting even earlier than before.

    First up is news about what the primary direction of the next patch is going to be: AI and Diplomacy. This is not to say that these will be the only parts of the game under the microscope, but it will be the focus. We're constantly looking at feedback on all parts of the game though, so keep your reports and feedback coming!

    I don't have any sort of ETA for the patch yet, but I will work on getting you one. Stay tuned to this thread for the most up-to-date information!

    Update 11/10/2010: The first batch of changes are now available! Here they are:

    Update 12/9/2010: Finally, the speculation can end! Today I have the patch release ETA. As you may have heard, we just announced that new DLC will be available to purchase on December 16. I can now confirm to you that the patch will be released before the DLC. The exact release date is still a tad flexible; it could be a couple days before the DLC, it could be an hour before the DLC. But hey, that's why they call it an Estimated Time of Arrival!

    AI
    • Worker AI improvements.
    • Update to tactical AI pillaging code. Additionally, always check to make sure it’s not trying to pillage in an enemy dominance zone.
    • AI victory emphasis improvements (more efficient end-game when focusing on Science and Diplo victories).
    • AI should colonize other continents regularly.
    • AI will emphasize production of an Ocean going explorer unit when the time comes.
    • Adjust Napoleon to make him more likely to go for culture.
    • More aggressive second wave expansion (mostly off shore) after initial empire building and consolidation has occurred.
    • Optimization when finding routes (pathfinder improvement).
    • Multiple tweaks and bug fixes.
    • AI will now build ranged and mobile units more in line with the flavor settings.
    • Multiple defensive AI tweaks.
    • Never use ranged units to provide flanking bonuses. (Added 11/18)
    • Improve AI use of protected bombard attacks (melee in front, ranged in the rear). (Added 11/18)
    • Worker priority adjustments (prioritize pillaged tiles, etc.). (Added 11/18)
    • Further pathfinder optimization. (Added 11/18)
    • AI will be more aggressive about pursuing Diplo victory if they are wealthy. (Added 12/3)
    • AI more effective with building, moving, and using aircraft and anti-aircraft more effectively. (Added 12/3)
    • AI more likely to effectively use siege units in a city attack. (Added 12/3)
    • Better nuke targeting by AI. (Added 12/3)
    • Tactical AI Tuning: Reduce chance of AI civs making "suicide" attacks. (Added 12/3)
    • Multiple tweaks and bug fixes. (Added 12/3)


    GAMEPLAY
    • Cities heal more quickly.
    • Only allow one upgrade per unit from a goody hut.
    • Science building track adjustments (cost, specialist slots, GP Points, etc). (Added 11/18)
    • Amount of damage caused during naval combat increased. (Added 11/18)
    • Melee horse units combat value lowered, and now receive a penalty when attacking cities. (Added 11/18)
    • Lowered bonuses received from Maritime city-states. (Added 11/18)
    • Removed maintenance from defensive buildings. (Added 11/18)
    • Multiple unit upgrade track adjustments. Most (but not all) units now have a full upgrade path from start to finish. (Added 11/18)
    • Open terrain penalty lowered. (Added 11/18)
    • Policies must be selected the turn they are earned. (Added 11/18)
    • Promotions must be selected the turn they are earned. If it’s as a result of combat, then the beginning of the next turn. (Added 11/18)
    • Increased city strength ramp-up based on technology. (Added 12/3)
    • Catapults and Trebuchets now weaker against units but stronger VS cities, and reduced effectiveness of Archers & Crossbowmen (and their UUs) VS cities. (Added 12/3)
    • Have culture cost for policies never go down (trading away cities to reduce culture cost exploit). (Added 12/3)
    • Reduced effects of Forbidden Palace and Meritocracy (Happiness per city). (Added 12/3)
    • Reduced points from Wonders & Cities, increased points for population. (Added 12/3)
    • Reduced culture needed for first plot acquisition. (Added 12/3)
    • New Building: Circus Maximus (National Wonder for happiness track). (Added 12/3)
    • New Building: National Treasury (National Wonder for economic track). (Added 12/3)
    • Unhappiness beyond a certain point breeds rebels within your empire, based on the number of cities a player has. (Added 12/3)
    • Reduced amount of food needed for cities to grow at larger sizes. (Added 12/3)
    • Tradition branch balance (Landed Elite and Monarchy improvements). (Added 12/3)
    • Liberty branch balance (Settler training bonus now only applies to capital). (Added 12/3)
    • Buildings can now no longer provide more Happiness than there is population in a city (wonders are excluded from this). (Added 12/3)
    • 3 new additional Natural Wonders added to gameplay, with accompanying “rarity” code. (Added 12/3)
    • Multiple Tech Tree tweaks to address “slingshot” tech exploits. (Added 12/3)
    • Killing a barb inside a city-state's territory now gives a 5-turn buffer where there is no Influence intrusion penalty. (Added 12/3)
    • Reduced and balanced combat bonuses. (Added 12/3)


    UI
    • Tweaked the single-player score list to hide the civs of unmet ai players.
    • Added game option to disable automated workers from removing features. (Added 11/18)
    • Additional updates to the Global Politics screen. (Added 12/3)
    • Added game option to disable turn-blocking promotions and policy choices. (Added 12/3)


    DIPLO
    • AI's attitude towards you is now visible in the diplo screen and diplo drop-down.
    • Added info tooltip for an AI leader's mood. Lists things that are making an AI player happy/upset.
    • New diplo system: Declaration of Friendship (public declaration with diplomatic repercussions).
    • New diplo system: Denounce (public declaration with diplomatic repercussions).
    • New custom leader responses (Serious Expansion Warning, Aggressive Military, Luxury Exchange, Borders Exchange, Gift Request).
    • Additional AI attitude tool-tips for cases that were not already covered. (Added 12/3)


    MODDING
    • Parent category counts now include counts of child categories.
    • Selecting/deselecting a category now automatically selects/deselects it's children and its parent.
    • Tweaked category name truncation to better fit names.
    • Hide categories w/ no children and a count of 0.
    • Added support for fallback languages (if mod is not translated, fall-back to English so text keys are not showing).
    • Support for mods that perform major restructuring of the tech tree including adding, deleting, and updating techs, buildings, and units. (Added 12/3)
    • Added GameEvents system for overriding Gameplay DLL specific functionality. (Added 12/3)
    • Fixed "Reload Landmark System" mod flag to now refresh landmarks defined in "ArtDefine_Landmarks". (Added 12/3)
    • Multiple SDK Updates (details to come with full patch notes). (Added 12/3)


    MISC
    • Fixed save format which causes saves to increase the memory footprint of the game drastically when loading frequently over the course of the game.
    Last edited by 2K Greg; 12-09-2010 at 12:23 PM.

  2. #2
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    Hi Greg,

    Thanks for creating this thread. Could you please let us know if the AI changes will improve the MP AI so that it at least matches the solo AI ?

    Thanks !

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    Cool, good news about AI and diplomacy as they seem to be among the most maligned aspects currently. Maybe the devs do read the forum!

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    Yes! I really do look forward to more options with interacting with the AI, and please please implement some kind of option where we can insult the AI, they can do it to us, why not we to them? Oh and i hope the the patch also makes the AI more "negotiating" with a player that has three times everything they have.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ManOverGame View Post
    Yes! I really do look forward to more options with interacting with the AI, and please please implement some kind of option where we can insult the AI, they can do it to us, why not we to them? Oh and i hope the the patch also makes the AI more "negotiating" with a player that has three times everything they have.
    Why do you want to insult the AI? Seriously, what purpose would this serve?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2K Greg View Post
    What I do have for you is news about what the primary direction of the next patch is going to be: AI and Diplomacy.
    You've GOT to be kidding me. How in the name of god is the focus NOT fixing multiplayer? AI/Diplomacy was the same focus as the first major patch.. and AGAIN those things are given top priority? While multiplayer languishes in an alpha test like state?

    I don't even know what to say. I'm just astounded. It's becoming clear now that Multiplayer was just a quickly tacked-on afterthought in Civ V.. just wish I'd known that before purchase - because I wouldn't have.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wayninja View Post
    Why do you want to insult the AI? Seriously, what purpose would this serve?
    To attempt to force them to declare war on you, so that you aren't seen as the power-monger-er? Not that I suspect they ever would (it's too easy to exploit), but in principle, I don't see that the AI should have any more or less options that the player.

    You've GOT to be kidding me. How in the name of god is the focus NOT fixing multiplayer?
    I really don't know the answer to this, but what do you estimate the proportion of MP vs 1P civvers is? I have never played MP, and don't intend to, and suspect it to be a smallish percentage. While that doesn't detract from there being issues with MP, any developer worth their salt will naturally want to address the issues that will improve things for the majority, rather than the minority. Of course, if there are stats that say MP use > 1P use (is there an achievement that tells us that I wonder?), feel free to shoot me down.

    2KGreg - could this thread be locked so just you add to it with new posts with info, like the patches post? That way people can subscribe and just get notified when there's a genuine update, not this kind banter that exists in every other thread on this forum?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beliathon View Post
    You've GOT to be kidding me. How in the name of god is the focus NOT fixing multiplayer? AI/Diplomacy was the same focus as the first major patch.. and AGAIN those things are given top priority? While multiplayer languishes in an alpha test like state?

    I don't even know what to say. I'm just astounded. It's becoming clear now that Multiplayer was just a quickly tacked-on afterthought in Civ V.. just wish I'd known that before purchase - because I wouldn't have.
    Damned if they do and damned if they don't I suppose. The latest poll I've seen on here indicates the majority want AI and diplomacy worked on first and multiplayer in 3rd place. I'm betting multiplayer will be the next thing to see improvement.

    http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/pol...ts&pollid=2110

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    Quote Originally Posted by wayninja View Post
    Why do you want to insult the AI? Seriously, what purpose would this serve?
    It would make me feel better! lol
    Seriously, the temptation to taunt those guys is unbearable. Especially that Siam guy!

  10. #10
    I don't know how to say this without saying ungrateful but - what about the hotfix so we can... ... actually play/finish our games? It is totally unacceptable that mid/late stage large games were broken nearly two weeks ago, and not one peep about fixing it.

    And if they're not going to bother to hotfix it, then please tell us, because it is really frustrating opening up steam each day hoping to see the patch fixed, and not getting that update. So if we have to wait weeks or a month for the "big" update to fix that technical issue, then for goodness sakes tell us so we can shelve the game until then. I know some people don't mind playing small games, but the rest of us shouldn't be forced down that route when it worked pre-patch.


    We really do appreciate being kept in the loop and the news o patch stuff, but you've got to understand people get flamey because it's not like this was a $10 alpha copy of Minecraft.

    Sorry. I know it's not your fault.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ckone01 View Post
    It would make me feel better! lol
    Seriously, the temptation to taunt those guys is unbearable. Especially that Siam guy!
    I would like to insult right before I take his/her capital

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgtbilko View Post
    While that doesn't detract from there being issues with MP, any developer worth their salt will naturally want to address the issues that will improve things for the majority, rather than the minority.
    I disagree. Any developer worth their salt will address the issues that are in most desperate need of fixing. AI / Diplomacy has already been patched once, and in that patch multiplayer was given almost NO attention.

    Compared to MP, the diplomacy & AI in Civ V are both HIGHLY FUNCTIONAL.
    Just in the interest of fairness you must agree that the multiplayer crowd is getting the shaft here.

    I will never for the life of me understand why people are so interested in playing a complex strategy game against opponents WITHOUT REAL INTELLIGENCE. A chimpanzee is hundreds of times more intelligent than the most intelligent AI in the world.

  13. Omg

    Seriously?? WTH about MP? It's so un-playable.... i can't play it.. thats about as unplayable as possible.

    Mp, Mp , MP , MP (X Spam)

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    Question

    And what about late turn crashes?

    Are you going to fix this issue with upcoming patch?

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    I appreciate the update Greg, thanks very much.

    People lobbying for MP, shush. Sorry, the current AI is the biggest priority possible. Nobody really cares about MP except a small band of vocal people

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    I think most of us can agree that there should be an option to insult the AI, or a list of taunts we can throw at them covering culture, science, military, and maybe money.
    Insulting the AI makes the player feel more good about themselves when they approach the last remaining city of a long time enemy. Just simply wiping them out and have them say their last words isn't enough, it just doesn't seem to fill that void that the AI created.
    As for the MP thing, I'm supporting AI/Diplomacy first, MP can wait because I never intend to touch it. I barely noticed a difference in dipl. in the first patch, the AI only got more easily offended and slightly more rational. The next patch after this will probably come in like 2 months, does it kill you to wait that long? Why not just enjoy the SP with the new patch and wait?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ManOverGame View Post
    I think most of us can agree that there should be an option to insult the AI, or a list of taunts we can throw at them covering culture, science, military, and maybe money.
    Insulting the AI makes the player feel more good about themselves when they approach the last remaining city of a long time enemy. Just simply wiping them out and have them say their last words isn't enough, it just doesn't seem to fill that void that the AI created.
    Seriously, even if this were worth adding, which I still don't understand why it would be, it needs to be number 500,000 on the list.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ManOverGame View Post
    does it kill you to wait that long?
    Yes, it does. The MP is in such a sorry state that I have completely stopped playing the game until it's fixed (I have no interest in single player).

    Quote Originally Posted by ManOverGame
    Why not just enjoy the SP with the new patch and wait?
    By some miracle, my main concern isn't the ability to TAUNT an opponent that is INCAPABLE OF HUMAN EMOTION. I don't find repetitive, scripted responses to be compelling gameplay wise. When I taunt, I want my opponent to be capable of perceiving and comprehending what I'm saying, and I want a REAL response. You can't get that from an AI.

    Quote Originally Posted by wayninja View Post
    Seriously, even if this were worth adding, which I still don't understand why it would be, it needs to be number 500,000 on the list.
    QFT! For the love of all that is reasonable, Q-F-TEEE!!
    Last edited by Beliathon; 11-04-2010 at 06:03 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beliathon View Post
    You've GOT to be kidding me. How in the name of god is the focus NOT fixing multiplayer? AI/Diplomacy was the same focus as the first major patch.. and AGAIN those things are given top priority? While multiplayer languishes in an alpha test like state?

    I don't even know what to say. I'm just astounded. It's becoming clear now that Multiplayer was just a quickly tacked-on afterthought in Civ V.. just wish I'd known that before purchase - because I wouldn't have.
    The first patch was not AI and Diplomacy focused; there were a couple small changes in there but for the most part it was interface, stability, and bug fixing.

    I do understand that you really would like to see improvements in the multiplayer department, but right now the AI and Diplomacy is what we have decided to be the most important part of the game to improve.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Isoetes View Post
    And what about late turn crashes?

    Are you going to fix this issue with upcoming patch?
    Yeah, stability improvements and bug fixes are always going to be part of patches. There is a late turn crash issue we're looking in to now in fact.

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    Thanks Greg,

    I think that this is definitely the most important part of the game to fix. And no doubt you will address other issues within the patch as well.

    I don't understand why so many people are frustrated with this game and the level of support. I find it a welcome change to actually see the developers keeping us in the loop about what is being planned etc.

  22. Quote Originally Posted by 2K Greg View Post
    AI and Diplomacy is what we have decided to be the most important part of the game to improve.
    Ok well lets agree that single player is PLAYABLE, albeit slightly poorly.... However the Multiplayer is compeltly UNPLAYABLE and it does not require AI or diplomacy as human interaction will suffice.
    Why can't you focus on what is broken rather then something which needs a polish?

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    The game works fine for me.

    The AI however do get on my nerves...they try to make me lose. Is that a bug???

    For if I play against "real" people, and I lose against them, then I have every reason to blame someone else for out-smarting me.

    However, if I lose against the less-than-chimpanzee-intelligence of the program's AI, then I would most certainly have only myself to blame. Which then, given such self-imposed standards, such a loss would make me feel......,well, .........really stupid.

    I do so enjoy the game.

    -.-

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oulidan View Post
    Hi Greg,

    Thanks for creating this thread. Could you please let us know if the AI changes will improve the MP AI so that it at least matches the solo AI ?

    Thanks !
    Greg, is it me or do you avoid answering this question in every single thread that asks it ?

    Till now, if I'm not mistaken, we didn't get a single word from you on the MP AI...

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    2kgreg... You should make a shirt that has 2k logo and the words: "damned if you do and damned if you don't".

    Is there any chance we can get a hotfix for the community that prevents such foolish attitudes towards positive information and direction??? An ignorance hotfix perchance?? I don't like acting like a troll on this issue, but seriously the attitude from players wanting information and than getting said information is ludicrous!

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2K Greg View Post
    right now the AI and Diplomacy is what we have decided to be the most important part of the game to improve.
    Fine, I just really hope they will at least provide basic lobby functionality and bug-fixes for multiplayer this time around. I know I don't have to tell you that just a little love would go a long way in this department.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oulidan View Post
    Greg, is it me or do you avoid answering this question in every single thread that asks it ?

    Till now, if I'm not mistaken, we didn't get a single word from you on the MP AI...
    I have answered the question before: I don't have any details on forthcoming multiplayer improvements other than the fact that Hotseat and Pitboss will be implemented in a free patch. Right now the focus is on AI and Diplomacy. As soon as this changes, I will let you know.

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    Well, thanks for answering.

    While I understand you don't have the details on future MP improvements, it would at least be nice if the huge difference between MP AI and solo AI could be explained, or the problem acknowledged if it is not working as intented.

    Thanks.

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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by 2K Greg View Post
    As soon as this changes, I will let you know.
    Thanks for that!

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2K Greg View Post
    What I do have for you is news about what the primary direction of the next patch is going to be: AI and Diplomacy.
    Greg, thanks for all the info. Could you please tell us if this is just going to improve single player AI or will it also fix/address how AI slots perform in multiplayer (which currently performs worse than in SP, rarely to never contacts others or declares wars, etc.)? Any info on this or if this issue is being looked would be great. It has never been addressed in any official post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by istry555 View Post
    Greg, thanks for all the info. Could you please tell us if this is just going to improve single player AI or will it also fix/address how AI slots perform in multiplayer (which currently performs worse than in SP, rarely to never contacts others or declares wars, etc.)? Any info on this or if this issue is being looked would be great. It has never been addressed in any official post.
    Hehe thanks, that's exactly what I was trying to explain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2K Greg View Post
    I have answered the question before: I don't have any details on forthcoming multiplayer improvements other than the fact that Hotseat and Pitboss will be implemented in a free patch. Right now the focus is on AI and Diplomacy. As soon as this changes, I will let you know
    The thing is, this isn't really a MP improvement. Many people are wondering why the AI in MP doesn't seem to function as intelligently or as interactively as in SP. If AI is being looked at in this patch, I don't understand why only the SP AI is being looked at and not also the MP AI, when all people want is for the MP AI to function comparable to the SP AI. It seems like fixing the AI is fixing AI, unless the developers are specifically writing the M AI to function differently than in SP. If this is the case, why?

    If you don't have information on "MP improvements" can you at least find out if the fact that MP AI is dumber and less interactive than SP AI is a deliberate design decision?

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    I will specifically check in to this for you

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    Great ! Thanks !

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2K Greg View Post
    I will specifically check in to this for you
    Thank you! My friends and I that play teams vs the AI in MP thank you, as well as everyone else in the community that likes to use AI slots in MP!

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant Of Lannister View Post
    Ok well lets agree that single player is PLAYABLE, albeit slightly poorly.... However the Multiplayer is compeltly UNPLAYABLE and it does not require AI or diplomacy as human interaction will suffice.
    Why can't you focus on what is broken rather then something which needs a polish?
    If god came down from heaven and told me "pick the correct one or die"

    1: more than 90% of the people who stopped playing Civ did so because of single player issues
    2: less than 90% stopped playing because of single player issues

    I would pick option 1 without hesitation.

    When the diplomacy and AI kills the single player game to the point that people stop playing, that's beyond 'polish'.

    I'm being blunt and rude, but sorry, MP is not as important as SP in Civ. Wait your turn.

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    Thanks greg. It's understandable the devs want to iron out the single player bugs to make it easier to port the 'Fixed' version of the game to MP later. Porting the fixes now will create another job in the future to port future fixes, which might damage the first fixes, causing more issues.

    Quote Originally Posted by istry555 View Post
    The thing is, this isn't really a MP improvement. Many people are wondering why the AI in MP doesn't seem to function as intelligently or as interactively as in SP. If AI is being looked at in this patch, I don't understand why only the SP AI is being looked at and not also the MP AI, when all people want is for the MP AI to function comparable to the SP AI. It seems like fixing the AI is fixing AI, unless the developers are specifically writing the M AI to function differently than in SP. If this is the case, why?

    If you don't have information on "MP improvements" can you at least find out if the fact that MP AI is dumber and less interactive than SP AI is a deliberate design decision?
    Also, what this guy said.

    It is clear to me Civ V SP and Civ 5 MP and independent, running off there own file base, hence no single player fixes have affected MP in any way, not even the terrain cacheing issue (fixed SP, broken MP) so think of it at medal of honour. Two games under the same title. Do not expect any fixes to touch multiplayer unless specificaly designed to (unless it's engine related, then it is debatable).

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    Quote Originally Posted by wayninja View Post
    Why do you want to insult the AI? Seriously, what purpose would this serve?
    Drive up their anger, make them more likely to go to war with you.

    Edit - And very happy that the focus with be AI and Diplomacy. Very much looking forward to the improvements.

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    Thanks for this thread Greg, the manner that you updated and maintained the last patch notes was very helpful in maintaining some sort of optimism around here.

    And as a big MP fan, I recognise that AI and Diplomacy should take priority (with the odd tweak or two) before MP is tackled. It simply makes sense.

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    I hope you can fix the game from freezing when you move around on the map.
    I have started several savings now, all on Large earth map, and it always freezes after some time.
    On one save I can not move to North America without the game freezing, and sadly for me, I have some of my biggest cities there, and every time a "Great person" is born, I have to move the view to North America, and then the game freezes.
    Can you add that as an option, to stop the game from producing "great persons and generals??" If I had this option, I could play longer before the game freezes. I have tried changing the unit.xml, changing the value -1 to 25.000, but the persons still get born in cities. I try to have great person in each city, but they still get born.

    I have to use autosave after each turn, quicksave after each thing I do, and use CTRL + ALT + DEL to stop the game when it freezes, start the game again, load the save, and 5 minutes later is freezes again.

    I think I'm using more time loading the game, then I'm using it to play. My brother has the normal version, and a better computer then me, and he also have the same problems.

    It is not fun to play a game that you know will freeze any moment, and you can never do anything "big" without pressing F11 so often then I think the button will stop working after some time.

    The same problems playing with other CIVs, in Europe, in Asia, in Africa, whatever, the game freezes so often that all fun with this game goes away. It has been my worst investment ever.

    Please fix this problem fast, or I think you loose many players, but you don't care about that, because we have already paid for the game, so why bother trying to give us a good game to play?

    I'm using low settings on all, 1024*768 resolution, no AA, direct X 9 (same problems with 9 or 10/11). The graphic look likes it's a game 10 years old or something, but it's the only way I can maybe play 10 minutes before it freezes, and not 5 with better graphic.

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