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Thread: promotions & units - they keep their unique abilities?

  1. #1

    promotions & units - they keep their unique abilities?

    i read in several posts that sometimes unique units seem to keep their unique abilities and sometimes they do not...this seems to be very interesting and i am wondering if anyone can tell me about that? does it only account to special abilities like +x% against y or also to general strenght improvements (e.g. musketeers keep their +4 str when upgrading to riflemen etc.)

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    According to the latest patch it is intentional (or it is started as a bug, but now they want to keep it, anyway it's a nice feature).
    Basically the unit attributes (flags marked as small triangles) are inherited after upgrade.

    Make a few more negative promotions not pass through on upgrades
    So according to this they continously remove attributes which gives penalty only after the upgrade.

  3. #3
    hmmm then a few of these ancient units seem much more interesting now as increased healing from immortals or the damage bonus from foreign legion and a + in attack power for uu also considered an ability that passes over? and if yes does it pass over when promoting absolutly (meaning a +2 will always stay a +2) or relatively (e.g. musketeers have a +25% attack bonus looking at the 16-20 therefore they will always have a 25% - which would be reeeaaallly nice)

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    plus attack powers and basically general unit statistics are not represented as attributes, neither the roman legions road building capability (or maybe, as haven't checked that since the last patch).
    Cho-ko-nu's +1 attack however is a must have, as well as the Immortal +2 regen as you have mentioned it.

    Otherwise, I think the perfect implementation would be:
    1.) UUs should be stronger in their base (unmodified) statistics than their common counterparts
    2.) Every special aspect of UUS should be represented as attribute, containing the balance (minus) statistics after the attr.s, compared to an unmodified (base) UU.
    What I mean:

    Crossbowman (Att: 12) - the common unit
    English Longbow UU (Att: 12 + 1 range)
    Chinese Chu-ko-nu (Att: 10 + 1 No. attack)

    Crossbowman (Att: 12) - the common unit
    Common UU Crossbowman (Att: 15) - theoretical base UU, stat increase only like at swordsman vs. roman legion, no need for attribute
    English Longbow UU (Att: 12 + 1 range) - Attribute(s): +1 range, -3 Att
    Chinese Chu-ko-nu (Att: 10 + 1 No. attack) - Attribute(s): +1 No. attack, -5 Att

    This way the inherited attributes could be balanced all over the different nations, regardless how do you inherit them throughout the upgrade tree. Otherwise no chance that it will work without bug imho, ever..

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    (copied my post from an older thread regarding this)

    Special bonuses to unique units should only provide the bonus while units maintain their unique identity. If they're upgraded, these special bonuses should be removed. The unique units represent a special era and unit to each civ and their abilities shouldn't be applied to the whole span of the game.

    Earlier unique units already have a slight advantage compared to later game unique units. Having them retain special abilities only makes them stronger and more advantageous.

    This is just an example of poor coding. Instead of having the unique features applied to the specific unit class, they just slapped on a unique promotion to grant the abilities. But, as everyone knows, when units are upgraded they keep their promotions.

    Also, some uniques are just simply stronger and don't have any unique abilities. When upgraded, they don't retain their higher strength. Inconsistencies like this are another reason why this game mechanic is unbalanced.

  6. #6
    In Civ IV, we had Viking berserkers that started with anphibious, and they were advertised in Civilopedia as a unit which kept the promotion. I think that's a perfectly valid approach, and it adds another layer to a nation's strategy. Also, it's realistic, as reflecting the military tradition of each country. Some players don't like to build a military in the age the UU kicks in, so this is an encouragement to build early and keep your units.

    Also, it's normally no game breaker: Incas' UU, the Slinger, would be somewhat unappealing if you couldn't turn them into melee-avoiding crossbowmen. This gives Incas a push in medieval era, but gets obsolete anyways because they just can avoid melee, not gunpowder. The English crossbowmen promotion is useless when upgraded, as riflemen don't do ranged attacks. I didn't play with China to see if Chu-Ko-Nu can blitz when transformed into rifles, but still, blitz means taking damage two times: it's only game-breaking if you have a considerable tech advantage, as blitzing mech infantry against unsupported riflemen.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    chu rifles attack twice w/o blitz

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    True Chu upgraded still attacks twice per turn

  9. #9
    honestly i dont like takes out the fluff of these units since they loose their identity that justifies their special bonus but still keep it...moreoever if you can upgrage cho to riflemen and such, the bonus is simply way to strong, also cause they dont carry over the - attack strength...that really needs some patching

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis7884 View Post
    it takes out the fluff of these units since they loose their identity that justifies their special bonus
    I like the logic behind this, and agree historically. However as a game mechanics it brings too much interesting opportunities for me to say no.

  11. #11
    Also, as far as I know, this was originally a bug, but 2k decided to keep it. They removed the "bad promotions" but kept the good ones in the last patch. This was because such promotions lead to interesting emergent gameplay - at least that was their opinion. So it's improbable they will remove those promotions in later patches - maybe they can nerf some, as the Chinese one.

  12. #12
    but - at least imo - it highly de-balances the game...especially when it removes bad promotions, since for example non special units like horse units also dont loos their negative promotions when upgrading...that doesnt make sense imo...

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    It does make sense that some promotions should be kept as a matter of military tradition for that civ. So Berserkers or Samurai can keep their abilities after promotions, because these military tactics and philosophies are ingrained in them. The Cho-Ko-Nu doesn't make sense, though. Double attack from them was the nature of their equipment, not an ability that can be taught.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    The Glorious Country of Texas
    i agree with some of y'all.

    First, stop treating the upgraded UU's like their promotion carries over to every new unit you build. its doesnt. this encourages you to build your UU's and save them. And some UU's were designed around this, others designed to give you a great boost in the era they were built.

    For example look at America's minute man. Its useless unless you upgrade it. and the US has a very mobile military in real life. Japan-bushido. iroquois and aztec, in the woods. etc...

    and it makes for fun gameplay.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Quote Originally Posted by Onandoga View Post
    For example look at America's minute man. Its useless unless you upgrade it. and the US has a very mobile military in real life. Japan-bushido. iroquois and aztec, in the woods. etc...
    Just for a clear view as the same confusion here once again:
    • Bushido are UA and not UU, it does not belongs to the Samurai. More great generals and better fight on plains what it got, that can be inherited over.
    • Similar for the Iroquois and the Aztec. The Mohawk Warrior for instance having zero UU special abilities, all of it comes from the UA of the choosen civ.

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