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Thread: Gandhi and Nukes.

  1. #1
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    Question Gandhi and Nukes.

    I think I remember seeing something on these boards explaining Gandhi's favor towards nukes. I would REALLY like to read it because I can't believe it.

    Is it something like... nukes have indirectly brought peace and deters conflict because of the fact that we can now obliterate each other so easily and destroy the world?

    Even if it's somewhat true, I can't see it justifying what I discovered below.

    After copying data from the leader XML files I came across an anomaly. Gandhi's nuke flavor value of 12. TWELVE. Either this is a late-game joke (like giant death robots) or it's an error.

    Screenshot:
    http://i1093.photobucket.com/albums/...1/nukesort.jpg

    First, all the data on the sheet ranges from values of 1 to 10. 12 is off the charts.

    Second, it's Gandhi. Not even maniacs like Montezuma or Genghis come close to his number; nor do the defensive civs (if viewing the construction of nukes as a defensive measure).

    My guess is this code was entered by a sausage-fingered guy (like myself) who meant to type "2" and instead it came out like "12".

    I already found an error within Elizabeth's XML that had her Nuke flavor value totally missing and instead it listed her Water Connection flavor twice. Also, when the game came out, Alexander's XML values for city-state biases were backwards and conflicted with his special ability (They fixed it now and entered proper values).

    Therefore, I'm not ruling out the possiblity that this is an error.

    Yeah, I can simply just mod the value myself (which I will do). But it would be nice to match the default game values.

    I haven't faced Gandhi yet in my games since I started playing again. Does he really go batsh!t later in the game and fires nukes off? Yeah, you still have to manage to get on his bad side, which isn't as easy to do as others if you're not a warmonger, but it still seems kinda ridiculous.

  2. #2
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    Gandhi was nonviolent to the extreme. He would rather be killed than use nukes as a deterrent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brxbrx View Post
    Gandhi was nonviolent to the extreme. He would rather be killed than use nukes as a deterrent.
    I know, right? That's what I thought. His attributes in the game are grossly inaccurate. It's pretty funny.

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    Gandhi would not use nukes, but India might. Maybe this value represents Indias current threat as nuclear superpower and not the views and ways of Gandhi. Dunno, but I agree with your "sausage-fingered guy"-theory. lol.

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    There really is only one response to this...

    Gandhi

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by brxbrx View Post
    Gandhi was nonviolent to the extreme. He would rather be killed than use nukes as a deterrent.
    He, I remember Gandhi threatening me with nukes from Civ II ("my words [of peaceful wisdom] are backed by NUCLEAR WEAPONS").

    Probably Gandhi would not favor nukes even as a deterrent, but India herself has nukes. Gandhi's strategy worked well against England, which was a democracy with free press and voting people willing to listen and sympathize with him. But he also foolishly tried to appease Hitler well after Chamberlain, into the middle of WW2. A 100% accurate Gandhi would protest by laying down on the road in the way of the Mongol Horde. (And protest is something he does - he's the least forgiving, the more concerned about warfare and the most eager to denounce leader).

    That said, that nuke thing seems like a bug, yes, for being off-scale.

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    Gandhi's nuke flavor value of 12. TWELVE. Either this is a late-game joke (like giant death robots) or it's an error.
    No, it´s just a game.

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    And America is just middle of the pack?! I can understand Russia wanting to use them given their UA and the Cold War and all, but why is America just a 6? We've actually used them before!

    That's just dumb. That HAS to be a glitch. Gandhi wouldn't hurt anyone, and nukes are the best way to go about doing that.

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    why is America just a 6? We've actually used them before!
    Japan´s fault.What country is safe and friendly other than USA?

    I can understand Russia wanting to use them
    Actually, they never used nuclear weapons.

  10. #10
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    It's a Civ joke that Gandhi is secretly a warmonger. The quote you're looking for is from Dennis Shirk during an interview with Gamasutra,
    "We're not trying to keep people absolutely accurate. They're still going to do random things. We're still going to make them mad, and they're going to do things uncharacteristically, because that's part of what makes Civ fun. If you're playing against Gandhi and he doesn't declare war randomly on you at some point, then we haven't done our job."
    (Slightly more) realistically, there should be two values for nuclear weapons use: how willing you are to use it when your enemy doesn't have it, and how willing you are to use it when your enemy does have it. And willingness to use it should increase (at least temporarily) after being nuked.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by mwallyn View Post
    And America is just middle of the pack?! I can understand Russia wanting to use them given their UA and the Cold War and all, but why is America just a 6? We've actually used them before!

    That's just dumb. That HAS to be a glitch. Gandhi wouldn't hurt anyone, and nukes are the best way to go about doing that.
    Well, in real life, no, nukes are useless except as a deterrent. And it's not even a good deterrent. Argentina declared war on U.K., starting the Falklands war, even though U.K. had the nukes and Argentina was not even backed by the Soviet Union (it was an anti-communist dictatorship). The Argentinian generals were just confident U.K. would never bomb them to hell - at least in a localized war.

    MAD worked and probably still works in the case of India versus Pakistan. Still, tactical nukes were researched since the 50's and never put to use, both by USA and USSR. In practice, strategic nukes are there just to get spiderwebs and serve as an inspiration to some really good movies (wink wink).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Homero View Post
    Japan´s fault.What country is safe and friendly other than USA?
    let's not bring that here
    Quote Originally Posted by AeEsBii View Post
    It's a Civ joke that Gandhi is secretly a warmonger. The quote you're looking for is from Dennis Shirk during an interview with Gamasutra,

    (Slightly more) realistically, there should be two values for nuclear weapons use: how willing you are to use it when your enemy doesn't have it, and how willing you are to use it when your enemy does have it.
    not a very fun joke, if you're like me and you want credible personalities and have great respect for Gandhi's pacifism. Yeah, for the last one, it's just a game, but I'd like it to be believable, and "declare war randomly" doesn't do the trick

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    Quote Originally Posted by Homero View Post
    Actually, they never used nuclear weapons.
    I know, I was only saying that since they get double uranium as well as the buildup with the US, this should be expected. And since America has gone the distance and actually used them against someone, it should merit being one of the higher numbers on there, too.

  15. #15
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    The personality flags in XML can be adjusted up or down by 2 for a particular game. So, 12 means that Gandhi's flavor is never less than 10.

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    He was an inspirational figure of importance to the world. But everyone draws a different line for what's acceptable and not acceptable for humor (or at least, what is and isn't funny, even if it's not offensive). I think it's kind of amusing how I always fall for Gandhi seeming all peaceful like, and then at some point in the game (never the same point) he goes, "You were a fool to trust me!" And it surprises me every time even though I should see it coming by now.

    Elsewhere in that article he mentions how historical accuracy vs. fun has always been a point of contention with the fans, and that they (Firaxis) tend to side with fun. Give it a historical base but revel in how it all gets skewed afterwards.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by AeEsBii View Post
    He was an inspirational figure of importance to the world. But everyone draws a different line for what's acceptable and not acceptable for humor (or at least, what is and isn't funny, even if it's not offensive). I think it's kind of amusing how I always fall for Gandhi seeming all peaceful like, and then at some point in the game (never the same point) he goes, "You were a fool to trust me!" And it surprises me every time even though I should see it coming by now.

    Elsewhere in that article he mentions how historical accuracy vs. fun has always been a point of contention with the fans, and that they (Firaxis) tend to side with fun. Give it a historical base but revel in how it all gets skewed afterwards.
    Well, if Gandhi was immortal, maybe he would eventually try warfare a bit, just for a flavor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AeEsBii View Post

    Elsewhere in that article he mentions how historical accuracy vs. fun has always been a point of contention with the fans, and that they (Firaxis) tend to side with fun. Give it a historical base but revel in how it all gets skewed afterwards.
    but they don't have to be mutually exclusive!!1!one1!!1

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    It is if you derive your fun from making a bizarro world

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    just did the sid maru game vs him and he never built the manhatten project

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    Quote Originally Posted by jdog5000 View Post
    The personality flags in XML can be adjusted up or down by 2 for a particular game. So, 12 means that Gandhi's flavor is never less than 10.
    Hey there, jdog5000! Yes, I'm aware of that. It's still pretty darn high compared to the other values.

    Also... is there a chance that you may have some future plans to develop a BetterAI for Civ 5?

    You're our only hope.

    I couldn't play Civ 4 without it (along with the BUG mod by others).
    Last edited by jpbar81; 03-04-2011 at 05:07 PM.

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    EDIT: sorry, posted to the wrong thread.

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    Why is America's only 6? And Arabia's, 3? Isn't the Arab world usually viewed as lust for nukes? And ☺☺☺ with Aztec's being so high, Mexico doesn't even have any nukes!!

    Messed up chart. India only has less than 200 active nukes.

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    I believe all the values are meant to reflect the leader's personality more than the civilization itself (past and present).

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    Quote Originally Posted by jpbar81 View Post
    Hey there, jdog5000! Yes, I'm aware of that. It's still pretty darn high compared to the other values.
    Definitely high, but I feel like the fact that it's always more than 10 makes it more clear its intentional so that getting nuked by Gandhi happens sometimes.

    Quote Originally Posted by jpbar81 View Post
    Also... is there a chance that you may have some future plans to develop a BetterAI for Civ 5?
    I'm hopeful that the devs can improve the AI, both in its handling of its economy and in its war tactics. Once the source code is released, I'm sure someone in the community will step up and evolve the AI further. Maybe it will be me, we'll see.

    The really interesting fact is that the AI in Civ 5 is actually light-years ahead of the AI in Civ4 under the hood (all of this info I have gleaned from reading the AI logs). The AI has a grand strategy to try to win the game, at the Diplo level it tracks how others might be trying to win, keeps separate values for its public stance and its private feelings about its opponents. When it plans a military operation it knows that it needs combined arms and what kind of units it still needs for a successful operation, and the operation level AI will request specific unit types to be built or rushed in nearby cities. Heck, even the fact that it has organized military operations through which unit actions can be coordinated is totally new to civ.

    None of these things existed in Civ4.

    However, the Civ 4 AI was better tuned to play Civ 4 than the Civ 5 AI is for playing Civ 5 currently. There's no doubt about that. Plus, Civ 5 is a harder game - tactics obviously, but also tech/economy/happiness wise. The tech slider was a huge crutch for the AI in Civ 4, basically like bowling with bumpers. It didn't actually have to plan out in advance how to pay for things or balance its economy, it could just lower the slider and then react after the fact. That is much simpler to get working reasonably than planning in advance.

    What makes me quite excited about the future potential is that the AI infrastructure in Civ 5 is really advanced. It can be tuned and improved, and that process will start from a foundation that is actually much stronger and wider than ever before in the civ series. For example, Firaxis tweaked how the AI responds to denouncements by third-party civs in this last patch, and all of a sudden the Diplo AI seems vastly more logical. With a strong foundation system in place, these kinds of smart targeted tweaks can have a huge impact. I think it will be really interesting to see how the Civ 5 AI evolves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brxbrx View Post
    not a very fun joke, if you're like me and you want credible personalities and have great respect for Gandhi's pacifism
    Wel, following your reasoning, let's not bring that here.

    -----
    I believe all the values are meant to reflect the leader's personality more than the civilization itself
    I believe that all the values are meant to reflect an "western" ideological preconception: America is just middle of the pack, and Russia and the Aztecs both have the same level of agressiveness.


    but they don't have to be mutually exclusive!!1!one1!!1
    You are quite right.

  27. #27
    Sory for the Necro guys.
    The Reason For CIV Gandhi being a psychotic, Trigger-happy Nuke Enthusiast is a Running Gag dating back to a Programming error in the First game in the series. if i remember right, it was due to a rollover in Gandhi's Aggression stat that caused a Rollover from 1 to 255 whenever he adopted Democracy..... thus causing him to start Arbitrarily Nuking people the moment he had both Democracy AND nuclear weapons...

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    Quote Originally Posted by GantradiesDracos View Post
    Sory for the Necro guys.
    The Reason For CIV Gandhi being a psychotic, Trigger-happy Nuke Enthusiast is a Running Gag dating back to a Programming error in the First game in the series. if i remember right, it was due to a rollover in Gandhi's Aggression stat that caused a Rollover from 1 to 255 whenever he adopted Democracy..... thus causing him to start Arbitrarily Nuking people the moment he had both Democracy AND nuclear weapons...
    Interesting. However, at some point the gag gets old when people no longer find it funny. If the Devs were trying to get every leader personality 'right' they should have done so with Gandhi as well. I mean if we want Gandhi to be a warmonger, we can always choose random personalities in the game setup and see how what happens.

  29. Quote Originally Posted by Jazzterisk View Post
    Interesting. However, at some point the gag gets old when people no longer find it funny. If the Devs were trying to get every leader personality 'right' they should have done so with Gandhi as well. I mean if we want Gandhi to be a warmonger, we can always choose random personalities in the game setup and see how what happens.
    If anyone deserves a high nuke rating, it should be America, since we are the only people in history to use the weapons offensively against another country. Not that we made a habit out of it or anything, but still...

  30. #30
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    You want to get Ghandi's personality right?
    A racist wifebeater who sleeps with naked underage girls

    He rightly deserves praise for the things he did for India. But he was never a political leader. If he was, I seriously doubt you would have a high opinion of him.

    Lets stick with the largely fictionalized version for Civ!

  31. Quote Originally Posted by Artifex View Post
    You want to get Ghandi's personality right?
    A racist wifebeater who sleeps with naked underage girls

    He rightly deserves praise for the things he did for India. But he was never a political leader. If he was, I seriously doubt you would have a high opinion of him.

    Lets stick with the largely fictionalized version for Civ!
    And lets not even start about Mother Theresa! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7-sPB5dh_E (NSFW)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Artifex View Post
    You want to get Ghandi's personality right?
    A racist wifebeater who sleeps with naked underage girls
    Perhaps you're right but those traits don't have any impact on the game play mechanics.

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    To be honest, don't you think the original joke -Gandhi being nuke happy- is not funny anymore?

    This mechanic just seems so off place now. The game has a flag to randomize personality or likelihoods stats for all nations in the game. What would be funny is if you set that flag in the game and legitimately encountered Gandhi with a 10.

    What is so funny about having a peaceful leader being expected to predictably use nukes all the time? If you set Gandhi permanently at a 12 in the game, you might as well make Askia, Montezuma, Genghis Khan and Boudica as the most peaceful leaders while being the most threatening looking in the game.

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    are you kidding me? ghandi's nuke fixation is hilarious!

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    Yeah, its hilarious when you first encounter it. Then it just becomes amusing. Then after a few games, you simply just make it top priority to just kill them early. If it becomes habitually like that, what good is it to always try and kill a specific nation as soon as you see them?

    What would be hilarious is if I randomly encounter Gandhi with likelihood of 10 for using a nuke. It will always be amusing to see peaceful nations incredibly aggressive. The bug in Civ V was hilarious partly because it was unintentional and you did not expect someone like Gandhi to have that personality. What is not hilarious is to reproduce that effect intentionally and expect it to be timeless but, that is just me.

  36. #36
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    Just to tell everyone, Gandhi's nuke rating in civ5 is actually 12....

    And anyway, to use a nuke he's gotta get in a war. I think the DoW rating for his is a 4 or 5. So it's really your fault if you get nuked

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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Gate of Mordor View Post
    And anyway, to use a nuke he's gotta get in a war. I think the DoW rating for his is a 4 or 5. So it's really your fault if you get nuked
    Actually his DoW rating is 2 (the lowest of the pack) and his deceptivenes is 3 (also very low), so in that sense, he should be fairly easy to keep peace with. I guess the frequency with which he declares war anyway is a combination of the randomness of these number plus the extreme lack of stability of diplomatic relationships in the game.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by GantradiesDracos View Post
    The Reason For CIV Gandhi being a psychotic, Trigger-happy Nuke Enthusiast is a Running Gag dating back to a Programming error in the First game in the series. if i remember right, it was due to a rollover in Gandhi's Aggression stat that caused a Rollover from 1 to 255 whenever he adopted Democracy.....
    That's only a rumour, have you seen the actual codes? There are other similar stories out there, for example a programmer accidentally coded the maximum propensity to nuke in CIV 1, instead of the minimum, and that was rolled over to every CIV version since. Obviously these are only rumours and don't think they are true. In CIV IV's XMLs there was no difference between leaders' nuke flavours but still people thought gandhi was nuke-happy but he was as likely to nuke as any other civ.

    Let me just repeat myself once more, India's relatively high nuke flavour (10-14) has nothing to do with gandhi the statesman, it's mostly related to India the state. The reality is that India could be involved in a nuclear war and I can't think of another state more likely to do so other than North Korea and of course Pakistan.

  39. #39
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    Not just a rumor, and it wasn't just nukes.
    Contrasting sharply with the idea of a peaceful Ghandi, he has always been a warmonger since the first game, originally caused by a bug. All ais had values for aggressiveness, likelihood of building nukes, and such. Most had values somewhere in the middle between 1-10, but Gandhi had his set to 1. However, countries with a "peaceful" form of government also got a -1 or -2 to these values — and 1-2 = 255 for the math used in that place in the game. So, Gandhi was perfectly peaceful until he discovered Democracy, which is when he instantly turns into a bloodthirsty maniac who always wants to build and use nukes.
    The US was in a cold war situation too. I don't see why they would get a high nuke rating, when the USA does not have one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stethnorun View Post
    If anyone deserves a high nuke rating, it should be America, since we are the only people in history to use the weapons offensively against another country. Not that we made a habit out of it or anything, but still...
    I don't disagree there. Unfortunately, there are some in the government who are still actively endorsing their use today.

    However, if they are basing a Civs nuke rating on the leader's personality, I don't know if I'd put America at the top. I'm not an expert on American history but I don't think I'd classify Washington as bad a warmonger as some of the other leaders in the game.

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