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Thread: Why no Kongo, Italy, Sioux, Tannu Tuva etc

  1. #41
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    Nonsense, sorry. In fact, this a subject that has been beaten to death.
    I'd agree its been "beaten to death" I thought that was clear from my very first sentence. But nocturnal01 asked why Portugal had not been added yet, when other arguably less influential or interesting civs have been.

    And I do not think "marketing" is a nonsense answer to that question.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artifex View Post
    nocturnal01 asked why Portugal had not been added yet, when other arguably less influential or interesting civs have been.
    Well, who knows?..
    And I do not think "marketing" is a nonsense answer to that question.
    "Spain which is far too similar" is historically inaccurate nonsense, and this subject has been beaten to death.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Homero View Post
    "Too similar to Spain" is historically inaccurate nonsense.
    I think what people have suggested before about similarity to Spain isn't necessarily similarity of culture (they are very similar to outsiders, for obvious reasons, but to Spanish and Portuguese people the differences are much more visible - like many other pairs of countries that are culturally and geographically connected). I think it's more about how similar their in-game shtick would be likely to be - exploration, colonisation. However, I'm not sure I agree with that. Spain was about doing this in a forceful and military way, where Portugal was a little more consensual, peaceful and trading.

  4. #44
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    Even so, they added a lot of expansionist Civs that were 'friendly' like Sweden and Netherlands -- I think they (A) wanted more time to be sure Portugal played uniquely compared to other similar civs and (B) wanted to hold over a crowd-pleaser or two for the 2nd expansion, which I still feel is not guaranteed but probably will be announced next year.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by zephyrtr View Post
    (B) wanted to hold over a crowd-pleaser or two for the 2nd expansion, which I still feel is not guaranteed but probably will be announced next year.
    That´s a good point.

  6. #46
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    historically inaccurate nonsense
    I'm sorry if this is a sore spot that was unintentionally poked. No one is saying they are identical but try to see it as an outsider.
    Portugal and Spain rose to prominence in the same period, for the same reasons (colonization), originating from the same peninsula.
    None of that is inaccurate.

    And if you read close no one said that is a disqualifier as a civ. Simply that others were likely chosen first because they were MORE distinct from existing civs. You can have the opinion that Fraxis made a bad decision there. I suppose it could be argued. But there is no nonsense here. Marketing is a very sensible reason for a business to act. And the similarities in Portugal and Spain's stories of glory are obvious.

    Really man, Between 1580 and 1640 they even shared the same monarchs.

  7. #47
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    The similarity between Spain and Portugal is really only superficial. 60 years is not a long time to be in personal union, by the way.

    They both colonised - but in different ways.

  8. #48
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    I wholeheartedly agree.

    Of course there were 28 more years of fighting to restore the union, but lets ignore that. That 60 years is more significant though, considering its in the middle of the colonial period they are both famous for. About 1500-1800. 20% of it or so.

    But a superficial similarity is precisely the problem when translating them into civ. A game in which history is superficially simulated.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by SamBC View Post
    The similarity between Spain and Portugal is really only superficial. 60 years is not a long time to be in personal union, by the way.
    Right.If the Portuguese people were not very different from the Spaniards, Portugal would not exist. Spain has often been seen as a collection of separate provinces.Portugal is an Atlantic country; Spain is principally Mediterranean.
    In fact,
    "The Portuguese sense of nationality is diifferent from that of its neighbours, and, in some aspects, is based on the ancient Roman one. To the Spanish, nationality is essentialy based on ancestry and when a child´s birth is registered there, his or her lineage , for three generations before, is recorded. The English concept is based at least traditionally, is based on ethnicity, on being "Anglo-Saxon". For the latter where you were born has also been an important consideration. As with being a Roman citizen, so being Portuguese is essentially a state of mind, an acceptance of the national culture, in all embracing sense, and a way of life. Seneca the Elder and Hadrian were southern Iberians; the former never set foot in the imperial capital. Most Portuguese have long taken pride in their society´s relative lack of racial discrimination, and on their long tradition of inter-marriage with Indians, Africans and Chinese, as well English and Germans. Its often the foreign spouse, of whichever sex, who integrates into Portuguese society, rather than vive-versa.
    The state itself did likewise. As in the case of so many of Rome´s citizens during the empire, large numbers of Portugal´s citizens, holding full Portuguese passports today, whose only European ancestor may have been a century or more ago, have never visited their "home" country. They include Euro-Chinese in Macao and Hong-Kong, the burghers of Sri-Lanka, and Indians, many of them in Bombay, originating in Goa.

    Source, The First Global Village Martin Page

  10. #50
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    Might be hard to distinguish a unique CIV identity based upon pluralism and acceptance of far-flung offshoots.
    I'd be eager to see an attempt though.

    Some sort of bonus where Portugal benefits from reflected success of their trading partners? It would still have to encourage exploration or it wouldn't be Portugal so... a small lasting benefit from each civ or city state you meet? And are not currently at war with I suppose.

    Hard to quantify and it would need to scale with map size. Even harder to crystallize in an easy to understand blurb. I'm not sure it fits, but it would be different.

  11. #51
    I want to inflict a 6000 year Haitian Revolution upon the world.

    I'm serious. Haiti may not have been a world superpower, but it features a lot of what a Civ in Civilization is looking for. It has a larger than life character for a leader (Toussaint Louverture). The Revolution of Saint-Domingue involved dealing with major maritime powers (the French, British, and Spanish) that could be made into an interesting scenerio. The nature of the Haitian Revolution could be uniquely implemented into the game, possibly allowing the civ to cut off luxury resources (permanently?) from rival civs while having early access to the Freedom social policies.

    If Gran Colombia, Brazil, and Haiti could be worked into the game, it could flesh out the "New Americas" flavor. The American civ can stop being awkwardly grouped with European civs with its city appearance and music list.

  12. #52

    No armenia??????? Whyyyyyyyy??

    Can you tell me why in the game there is no such ancient nations like Armenia? You added such nation that does not even have 300 years) and Armenia is the first in the world to adopt Christianity in 301 AD, Cho is not longer process any attention, Russia added what the euro and the country added that Armenia and Urartu nazivalas no longer process any account, You better add more and African countries) LOL, and Caucasian ancient countries do not add)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenia

  13. #53
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    For Portugal, how about a unique naval unit that has some sort of trade-based ability? Or a unique GM that acts as a proper naval unit when embarked, for roughly the same effect.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Infernal Dante View Post
    Can you tell me why in the game there is no such ancient nations like Armenia... Caucasian ancient countries do not add
    Uhmm, you know Armenia is a "Caucasian ancient country"...

  15. #55
    Armenia in the region of the ancient Persians believed and history and kings, we have many kings with whom the Romans had even agreed podpisivali, Gneos Pompeos himself came to our tsaryu Tigran the Great, is also considered Uruartu ancient Armenia, the oldest vinodoeli the Armenians, the most The world's first Christian Armenians also took in 301, and why, after such incidents about which countries should create one that that which even do not have 1,000 years of history, and Armenia to our Erie has a history of 3000 years, I can even dokomenti imtroii to send if it would help that would be in the second series of Armenia appeared in Memory Games this game


    http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/n...tchristian.htm

  16. #56
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    Well, figured i would post my own idea for Portugal, inspired by 'Tahitian Moon' and 'SamBC', mainly.

    Unique Ability(UA): Double production speed for pre-Renaissance naval units. Half unhappines for citizens in transcontinental cities founded by Portugal.

    Unique Building(UB): Feitoria. Replaces Harbor. Same benefits as harbor, and allows pre-Renaissance naval and civilian units built in this city to cross ocean tiles, albeit with doubled movement cost. Gives free +1 sight promotion to every naval unit built in this city. Costs no gold maintenance.

    Unique Unit(UU): Trading Ships. Replaces Work Boat. May be spent when adjacent to a city-state borders to make a mini-trade mission, generating some gold and influence with that city-state.

    This is just a sketch, rough ideas. The purpose behind it is to encourage the player to build a small mainland empire, and aim for naval expansion after that. The names of Portuguese transcontinental cities would be drawn from another list, of portuguese ex-colonies (like goa, for example). I know, this may be sugercoating colonial expansion (with the 50% less unhappines thing), but hey, this is just a game, and if the intent is portraing Portugal at it's best, this may be a good idea.

    The major gameplay problem would be paying all those naval units maintenance, i think (Or maybe not, can't really tell). And moving those settlers to another continent, too (even a movement bonus for embarked settlers and workers may be in order...)

  17. #57
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    Infernal Dante,

    I deleted the two extra duplicates you posted. If your post doesn't immediately appear that doesn't mean it didn't go through it just means that a moderator has to approve them. So, if it doesn't appear just be patient instead of making the same post again. Once you've been here a while your posts won't need to be approved and will always just appear.

  18. #58
    I can give you no matter how historically doukumentami whether that would help Armenia also added to the game)? Just when the country was in a war against the Persians and Greeks since ancient times and added to the game which the Latin countries it is just nonsense.
    Last edited by Infernal Dante; 11-28-2012 at 10:15 AM.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Infernal Dante View Post
    I can give you no matter how historically doukumentami whether that would help Armenia also added to the game)? Just when the country was in a war against the Persians and Greeks since ancient times and added to the game which the Latin countries it is just nonsense
    This boards primary language is English. While it is not prohibited to post in other languages you will find that it creates unnecessary barriers to getting your point across.

    Этот плат основным языком является английский. Хотя это не запрещено писать в других языках вы увидите, что она создает ненужные препятствия к получению свою точку зрения.

    Edit: As you can see, Google Translate's translation of your original message - which you edited back into your above post - leaves much to be desired. That is why English is the preferred language on this forum: It is a Lingua Franca of the Internet.
    Last edited by headkase; 11-28-2012 at 10:34 AM.

  20. #60
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    It's also worth bearing in mind that this is just a place for fans to sound off and exchange ideas - we have no reason to believe that the developers will refer to this thread in choosing future civs to add. Then again, they might. It isn't part of some formal exercise, so all the documentation you provide is just for the edification of other forum users.

    That's no reason not to provide it - some people really enjoy drinking in the history.

  21. #61
    Tigranes the Great

    King of Armenia



    Tigranes II (Armenian: Տիգրան Բ), more commonly known as Tigranes the Great (Armenian: Տիգրան Մեծ Tigran Mets; Greek: Τιγράνης ὁ Μέγας Tigránes o Mégas) (140–55 BC) was emperor of Armenia under whom the country became, for a short time, the strongest state east of the Roman Republic. He was a member of the Artaxiad Royal House. Under his reign, the Armenian kingdom expanded beyond its traditional boundaries, allowing Tigranes to claim the title Great King, and involving Armenia in many battles against opponents such as the Parthian and Seleucid empires, and the Roman Republic.

    Early years

    Tigranes had been a hostage until the age of 40 at the court of King Mithradates II of Parthia who defeated the Armenians in 105 BCE. Other sources give the date as much earlier, at around 112–111 BCE. After the death of King Tigranes I in 95 BCE, Tigranes bought his freedom, according to Strabo, by handing over "seventy valleys" in Atropatene to the Parthians.
    When he came to power, the foundation upon which Tigranes was to build his Empire was already in place, a legacy of the founder of the Artaxiad Dynasty, Artaxias I, and subsequent kings. The mountains of Armenia, however, formed natural borders between the different regions of the country and as a result, the feudalistic nakharars had significant influence over the regions or provinces in which they were based. This did not suit Tigranes, who wanted to create a centralist empire. He thus proceeded by consolidating his power within Armenia before embarking on his campaign.
    He deposed Artanes, the last king of Armenian Sophene and a descendant of Zariadres.

    Alliance with Pontus

    During the First Mithridatic War (90–85 BCE), Tigranes supported Mithridates VI of Pontus but was careful not to become directly involved in the war.
    He rapidly built up his power, allying with Mithridates VI of Pontus and marrying his daughter Cleopatra. Tigranes had agreed that he was to extend his influence in the East, while Mithridates was to conquer Roman land in Asia Minor and in Europe. By creating a stronger Hellenistic state, Mithridates was to contend with the well-established Roman foothold in Europe. Mithridates then put into effect a planned a general attack on Roman and Italians in Asia Minor, tapping into local discontent with the Romans and their taxes and urging the peoples of Asia Minor against all foreign influence. 80,000 people were slaughtered in the province of Asia Minor, known as the Asiatic Vespers. The two kings' attempts to control Cappadocia and then the massacres resulted in guaranteed Roman intervention. The senate decided on Lucius Cornelius Sulla, who was then one of the current consuls, to be commander of the army against Mithridates.

    Wars against the Parthians and Seleucids

    After the death of Mithridates II of Parthia in 88 BCE, Tigranes took advantage of the fact that the Parthian Empire had been weakened by Scythian invasions and internal squabbling:

    When he acquired power, he recovered these (seventy) valleys, and devastated the country of the Parthians, the territory about Ninus (Nineveh), and that about Arbela. He subjected to his authority the Atropatenians , and the Goryaeans (on the Upper Tigris); by force of arms he obtained possession also of the rest of Mesopotamia and, after crossing the Euphrates, of Syria and Phoenicea.

    In 83 BC, after a bloody strife for the throne of Syria, governed by the Seleucids, the Syrians decided to choose Tigranes as the protector of their kingdom and offered him the crown of Syria. Magadates was appointed as his governor in Antioch. He then conquered Phoenicia and Cilicia, effectively putting an end to the last remnants of the Seleucid Empire, though a few holdout cities appear to have recognized the shadowy boy-king Seleucus VII Philometor as the legitimate king during his reign. The southern border of his domain reached as far as Ptolemais (modern Akko). Many of the inhabitants of conquered cities were sent to his new metropolis of Tigranakert (Latin name, Tigranocerta).
    At its height, his empire extended from the Pontic Alps (in modern north-eastern Turkey) to Mesopotamia, and from the Caspian Sea to the Mediterranean. Tigranes apparently invaded territories as far away as Ecbatana and took the title king of kings which, at the time, according to their coins, even the Parthian kings did not assume. He was called "Tigranes the Great" by many Western historians and writers, such as Plutarch. The "King of Kings" never appeared in public without having four kings attending him. Cicero, referring to his success in the east, said that he "made the Republic of Rome tremble before the prowess of his arms."
    Tigranes' coin consist of tetradrachms and copper coins having on the obverse his portrait wearing a decorated Armenian tiara with ear-flaps. The reverse has a completely original design. There are the seated Tyche of Antioch and the river god Orontes at her feet.

    Wars against Rome



    Tigranes the Great with four Kings surrounding him
    Mithridates had found refuge in Armenian land after confronting Rome, considering the fact that Tigranes was his ally and relative. The "King of Kings" eventually came into direct contact with Rome. The Roman commander, Lucullus, demanded the expulsion of Mithridates from Armenia – to comply with such a demand would be, in effect, to accept the status of vassal to Rome and this Tigranes refused. Charles Rollins, in his Ancient History, says:

    Tigranes, to whom Lucullus had sent an ambassador, though of no great power in the beginning of his reign, had enlarged it so much by a series of successes, of which there are few examples, that he was commonly surnamed "King of Kings." After having overthrown and almost ruined the family of the kings, successors of the great Seleucus; after having very often humbled the pride of the Parthians, transported whole cities of Greeks into Media, conquered all Syria and Palestine, and given laws to the Arabians called Scenites, he reigned with an authority respected by all the princes of Asia. The people paid him honors after the manners of the East, even to adoration.

    Lucullus' reaction was an attack that was so precipitate that he took Tigranes by surprise. According to Roman historians, the messenger who first brought news of the unexpected Roman attack was executed. Eventually Mithrobazanes, one of Tigranes generals, told Tigranes of the Roman approach. Tigranes was, according to Keaveney, so impressed by Mithrobazanes' courage that he appointed Mithrobazanes to command an army against Lucullus – Mithrobazanes was however defeated and killed After this defeat Tigranes withdrew north to Armenia to regroup which left Lucullus free to put Tigranocerta under siege. When Tigranes had gathered a large army he returned to confront Lucullus. On October 6, 69 BCE, Tigranes' much larger force was decisively defeated by the Roman army under Lucullus in the Battle of Tigranocerta. Tigranes' treatment of the inhabitants (the majority of the population had been forced to move to the city) led disgruntled city guards to open the gates of the city to the Romans. Learning of this, Tigranes hurriedly sent 6000 cavalrymen to the city in order to rescue his wives and some of his assets. Tigranes escaped capture with a small escort.
    On the 6 October 68 BCE, the Romans approached the old capital of Artaxata. Tigranes' and Mithridates' combined Armeno-Pontian army of 70,000 men formed up to face them but were resoundingly defeated. Once again, both Mithridates and Tigranes evaded capture by the victorious Romans.However, the Armenian historians claim, that Romans lost the battle of Artaxata and Lucullus'following withdrawal from the Kingdom of Armenia in reality was an escape due to above-mentioned defeat. The Armenian-Roman wars are depicted in Alexandre Dumas "Caucasus" book.
    The long campaigning and hardships that Lucullus' troops had endured for years, combined with a perceived lack of reward in the form of plunder, led to successive mutinies among the legions in 68–67. Frustrated by the rough terrain of Northern Armenia and seeing the worsening moral of his troops, Lucullus moved back south and put Nisibis under siege. Tigranes concluded (wrongly) that Nisibis would hold out and sought to regain those parts of Armenia that the Romans had captured. Despite his continuous success in battle, Lucullus could still not capture either one of the monarchs. With Lucullus' troops now refusing to obey his commands, but agreeing to defend positions from attack, the senate sent Gnaeus Pompey to recall Lucullus to Rome and take over his command.

    Pompey and the reconciliation with Rome



    Illustration of Tigranes the Great in 1898 book Illustrated Armenia and the Armenians
    In 67 BCE Pompey was given the task of defeating Mithradates and Tigranes. Pompey first concentrated on attacking Mithradates while distracting Tigranes by engineering a Parthian attack on Gordyeyne. Phraates III, the Parthian king was soon persuaded to take things a little further than an anexation of Gordyeyne when a son of Tigranes (also named Tigranes) went to join the Parthians and persuaded Phraates to invade Armenia in an attempt to replace the elder Tigranes with the younger. Tigranes decided not to meet the invasion in the field but instead ensured that his capital, Artaxata, was well defended and withdrew to the hill country. Phraates soon realized that Artaxata would not fall without a protracted siege, the time for which he could not spare due his fear of plots at home. Once Phraates left Tigranes came back down from the hills and drove his son from Armenia. The son then fled to Pompey.
    In 66 BCE, Pompey advanced into Armenia with the younger Tigranes, and Tigranes the Great, now almost 75 years old, surrendered. Pompey treated him generously and allowed him to retain his kingdom shorn of his conquests in return for 6,000 talents / 180 tonnes of silver. His unfaithful son was sent back to Rome as a prisoner.
    Tigranes continued to rule Armenia as an ally of Rome until his death in 55/54.

    The Kingdom of Armenia at its greatest extent under Tigranes the Great


  22. #62
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    Ozymandias

    I met a traveller from an antique land
    Who said: Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
    Stand in the desart. Near them, on the sand,
    Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
    And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
    Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
    Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
    The hand that mocked them and the heart that fed:
    And on the pedestal these words appear:
    "My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
    Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"
    Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
    Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
    The lone and level sands stretch far away.


    ~ Percy Bysshe Shelley

    ---

    There are two kinds of despair in the above: the first is the despair that the king of kings struck into the hearts of his enemies in his time. The second kind of despair is for all kings as the ravages of time erase everything - no matter how mighty they once were.

    Both kinds of despair are contained in the same sentence: "My name is Ozymandias, king of kings: Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"

  23. #63

  24. #64
    We did not golivudskih movies but you can still at least that is to imagine) it would be cool if Armenia would add to the game) Just moymu fact that Armenia first to adopt Christianity is such that it deserves Coser enter this game, do not want to advertise but there strategy where it is,

  25. #65
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    Infernal Dante,

    When posting brief messages instead of posting three threads with just a URL in each what you should be doing is editing your latest post and adding them into that. I did that for you this time and deleted the other two posts. You are bordering on spammish posting, consider carefully how you post especially since there were zero posts from any other member between your three.

    ~ headkase.

  26. #66
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    Infernal Dante, it also seems that you are including non-English words in the middle of sentences in English. This makes it very difficult for anyone to understand you. From context, I don't think you're saying anything objectionable when you do this, but it's hard for people to engage with you when we can't understand what you're trying to get across.

  27. #67
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    Armenia is already part of the game as a city state "Yerevan". Problem with Armenia is that they never actually managed to maintain an empire, except very briefly under Tigran, or never managed to defeat their enemies. For most of their history Armenians have been a vassal state of the Romans/Byzantines and the Persians.

    Personally I would like to see them in the game. Main reason: I am a western Armenian my granddad escaping the Armenian massacre about 100 years ago, they used to live in modern turkey on the Aegean sea coast in Asia Minor. Though looking at this objectively I don't think they have done enough to be included in CIV. They are too similar with the Jews so I guess its unlikely they will be included irrespective of their historical importance.

  28. #68
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    Imalich, the UU idea is nice, but I think the UB is a little too strong.

  29. #69
    Sorry for my english I'm using Google translate and I certainly know about genocide in Western Armenia from the Turks, and on the Memory Games, I would very much like it would have been supporter and helped with the fact that Armenia is also added to the game, would have been very happy if supporters were and I would without a would help to historical documents, the city and let the old cities Kars, Ani, Dvin, Tigranakert, Ervandashat After all, these cities were capitals of Armenia from sea to sea.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom...ia_(antiquity)
    Last edited by Infernal Dante; 11-28-2012 at 12:53 PM.

  30. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imalich View Post
    Unique Unit(UU): Trading Ships. Replaces Work Boat. May be spent when adjacent to a city-state borders to make a mini-trade mission, generating some gold and influence with that city-state.
    Here's why this will never happen: Buy out Trade Ship, send to nearest City-State, make Gold ... rinse and repeat. You're putting a city on Gold mode -- only you have to do it manually.

    The suggested Feitoria also seems very very similar to Carthage and Polynesia's abilities. And Imalich, I don't mean to rag on you but this proves my point, because others have made suggestions for Portugal that similarly do not work: it's apparently very hard to ensure Portugal's abilities celebrate their famous explorers and economists, but don't feel like a re-hashing of old ideas.

    I believe if Portugal gets in the game, it's because they will have taken the time to throw out all ideas that have already been used and give us a unique experience that's still quintessentially Portugal.

  31. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Infernal Dante View Post
    Can you tell me why in the game there is no such ancient nations like Armenia?
    Two reasons.

    First: the game can not, should not, and will not offer every single possible civilization, nation, culture, or whatever a role as a Civilization within the game. Really, it's just not possible.

    Second ... honest question: what, exactly, would Armenia bring to the game? What unique units or buildings would you assign to Armenia? What Unique Ability would Armenia have? What would Armenia add to Civilization, besides a list of city names, a flag, and a leader portrait? What would make playing as Armenia diferent from playing as any of the civs currently included?

    ...

    Rather than trying to shoe-horn Armenia (or most of the other civs that people are asking for in this thread) into Civ5, you mgiht be better off advocating their inclusion in future iterations of the franchise. That is to say, in this case, talking about adding them to Civilization SIX.

  32. #72
    I'll say again Armenia from the most ancient countries in the world, Mount Ararat Armenian which also beaten by Noah Amrenia Christianity also took the very first, and it gives little evidence that would add to the game? Or African countries need to do make))))

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urartu this is kingdom of Uruartu(modern Armenia).

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ararat,_Armenia This is Ararat(Armenia)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Apostolic_Church But it says that Armenia first to adopt Christianity in the world in the year 301, and that there is little evidence?? Or should dobovlyat Poland that did not then of the ancient and important no?

  33. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Infernal Dante View Post
    I'll say again Armenia from the most ancient countries in the world, Mount Ararat Armenian which also beaten by Noah Amrenia Christianity also took the very first, and it gives little evidence that would add to the game? Or African countries need to do make))))
    Let me ask more clearly: what would Armenia add to the game that no other civilization or country already does, other than city-names and a flag?



    Describe what you think Armenia's Unique Ability (UA) would be.

    Describe a Unique Building (UB) for Armenia.

    Describe a Unique Unit (UU) for Armenia.

    Tell me about who would be the best choice of Leader for Armenia - what did they do, that makes them stand out from all the other rules, ancient and modern alike?



    Unless you can do all that, without at least half of them just being copies of things from civilizations that are already part of the game ... then Armenia has no place in Civ5.

    Which also holds true for EVERY other country or culture on earth.

  34. #74
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    Well, I don't think people need to get really specific about the Ux stuff - just a sense of what the civ would be about, in gameplay terms - what the gameplay flavour would be. What sort of shtick could it have?

    That doesn't need to be completely unique - we have several mad-rush civs, we have two (I think) science civs. We have several that have cultural advantages. The question is, what's the flavour, and what might be an iconic building or unit, even if you can't say what the detail of that unit or building would be.

  35. #75


    This is Garni.




    This is Zvartnoc.



    This is Geghard.
    It's all ancient buildings, Garni built a after Alexander the Great.

  36. #76
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    Great. So the Armenians built things. Just about every other culture and nation on the face of the Earth did and does, too.

    So what did they build that was different from anything built by anyone else? What kind of building is uniquely Armenian, and not just it's appearance?

    Because, going down your list?

    Garni: it's a Temple. Hardly unique.

    Zvarnots: it's a Cathedral. Hardly unique.

    Geghard: it's a monastery. Hardly unique.

    ...

    All three are representatives of structures ANY Civilization in the game can construct. Just because it is old does not make it noteworthy for inclusion in the game.

  37. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by SamBC View Post
    The question is, what's the flavour, and what might be an iconic building or unit, even if you can't say what the detail of that unit or building would be.
    That's generally what I mean.

    I mean, let's take Rome for just one example. Romans are known for many things - road-building, the Legions, the Forums, master Aqueduct builders.

    Or Greece - Ampitheaters, theater-and-drama, the Spartans and hoplites, Agora.

    ...

    What does <insert random country/culture> have, that is uniquely or especially theirs ...?

  38. #78
    Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia



    The Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia (Classical Armenian: Կիլիկիոյ Հայոց Թագաւորութիւն Kilikio Hayots Tagavorutyun; French: Le Royaume Arménien de Cilicie), also known as the Cilician Armenia, Kingdom of Cilician Armenia or New Armenia,[1] was an independent principality formed during the High Middle Ages by Armenian refugees fleeing the Seljuk invasion of Armenia.[2] Located outside of the Armenian Highland and distinct from the Armenian Kingdom of Antiquity, it was centered in the Cilicia region northwest of the Gulf of Alexandretta, in what is today southern Turkey.
    The kingdom had its origins in the principality founded c. 1080 by the Rubenid dynasty, an alleged offshoot of the larger Bagratid family, which at various times had held the thrones of Armenia and Georgia. Their capital was at originally Tarsus, and later became Sis. Cilicia was a strong ally of the European Crusaders, and saw itself as a bastion of Christendom in the East. It also served as a focus for Armenian nationalism and culture, since Armenia proper was under foreign occupation at the time. Cilicia's significance in Armenian history and statehood is also attested by the transfer of the seat of the Catholicos of the Armenian Apostolic Church, spiritual leader of the Armenian people, to the region. In 1198, with the crowning of Levon the Magnificent of the Rubenid dynasty, Cilician Armenia became a kingdom.[3][4] In 1226, the crown was passed to rival Het'umids through Queen Zabel's second husband, He'tum I. As the Mongols conquered vast regions of Central Asia and the Middle East, Het'um and succeeding Het'umid rulers sought to create an Armeno-Mongol alliance against common Muslim foes, most notably the Mamluks.[4] In the thirteenth and fourteenth centuries, the Crusader states disintegrated and the Mongols became islamized, leaving the Armenian Kingdom without any regional allies. After relentless attacks by the Mamluks in Egypt in the fourteenth century, Cilician Armenia of the Lusignan dynasty, mired in an internal religious conflict, finally fell in 1375.[5]
    Commercial and military interactions with Europeans brought new Western influences to the Cilician Armenian society. Many aspects of Western European life were adopted by the nobility including chivalry, fashions in clothing, and the use of French titles, names, and language. Moreover, the organization of the Cilician society shifted from its traditional system to become closer to Western feudalism.[6] The European Crusaders themselves borrowed know-how, such as elements of Armenian castle-building and church architecture.[7] Cilician Armenia thrived economically, with the port of Ayas serving as a center for East to West trade

    Contents
    1 Early Armenian migrations to Cilicia
    1.1 Cilicia under Tigranes the Great
    1.2 Mass Armenian migration under the Byzantine Empire
    2 The Rubenid dynasty
    2.1 Emergence of Cilician Armenia
    2.2 First Crusade
    2.3 Armenian-Byzantine and Armenian-Seljuk contentions
    2.4 Principality becomes a kingdom
    3 The Het'umid dynasty
    3.1 Armeno-Mongol alliance and Mamluk threat
    3.2 Truce with Mamluks (1281–1295)
    3.3 Campaigns with Mongols (1299–1303)
    4 Demise of Cilician Armenia
    4.1 Decline and fall with the Lusignan dynasty
    4.2 Dispersion of the Armenian population of Cilicia
    5 Cilician Armenian society
    5.1 Culture
    5.2 Economy
    5.3 Religion
    6 See also
    7 Notes
    8 References
    9 Further reading
    10 External links




    Cilicia, particularly Kozan sanjak of Adana Vilayet, retained a substantial Armenian population until the Armenian genocide.

    Decline and fall with the Lusignan dynasty
    There had always been close relations between the Armenians and the Lusignans, who, by the 12th century, were already established in the eastern Mediterranean island of Cyprus. Had it not been for their presence in Cyprus, the kingdom of Cilician Armenia may have, out of necessity, established itself on the island.[33] In 1342, Levon's cousin Guy de Lusignan, was anointed king as Constantine II, King of Armenia. Guy de Lusignan and his younger brother John were considered pro-Latin and deeply committed to the supremacy of the Roman Catholic Church in the Levant. As kings, the Lusignans attempted to impose Catholicism and the European ways. The Armenian nobles largely accepted this, but the peasantry opposed the changes, which eventually led to civil strife.[34]
    From 1343 to 1344, a time when the Armenian population and its feudal rulers refused to adapt to the new Lusignan leadership and its policy of Latinizing the Armenian Church, Cilicia was again invaded by the Mamluks, who were intent on territorial expansion.[5] Frequent appeals for help and support were made by the Armenians to their co-religionists in Europe, and the kingdom was also involved in planning new crusades.[35] Amidst failed Armenian pleas for help from Europe, the falls of Sis to the Mamluks in 1374 and the fortress of Gaban in 1375, where King Levon V, his daughter Marie, and her husband Shahan had taken refuge, put an end to the kingdom.[5] The final king, Levon V, was granted safe passage, and died in exile in Paris in 1393 after calling in vain for another crusade.[34] In 1396, Levon's title and privileges were transferred to James I, his cousin and king of Cyprus. The title of King of Armenia was thus united with the titles of King of Cyprus and King of Jerusalem.[36] The title was held to the modern day by the House of Savoy.

    Culture
    Demographically, Cilician Armenia was heterogeneous with a population of Armenians who constituted the ruling class, and also Greeks, Jews, Muslims, and various Europeans.[38] The multi-ethnic population, as well as commercial and political links with Europeans, particularly France, brought important new influences on Armenian culture.[38] The Cilician nobility adopted many aspects of Western European life, including chivalry, fashion, and the use of French Christian names. The structure of Cilician society became more synonymous with Western feudalism than to the traditional nakharar system of Armenia.[6] In fact, during the Cilician period, Western titles such as baron and constable replaced their Armenian equivalents nakharar and sparapet.[6][38] European tradition was adopted for the knighting of Armenian nobles, while jousts and tournaments similar to those in Europe had become popular in Cilician Armenia. The extent of Western influence over Cilician Armenia is also reflected by the incorporation of two new letters (Ֆ ֆ = "f" and Օ օ = "o") and various Latin-based words into the Armenian language.[38]
    In other areas, there was more hostility to the new Western trends. Above all, most ordinary Armenians frowned on conversion to Roman Catholicism or Greek Orthodoxy. Cultural influence was not merely one-way, however; Cilician Armenians had an important impact on Crusaders returning to the West, most notably with their architectural traditions. Europeans incorporated elements of Armenian castle-building, learned from Armenian masons in the Crusader states, as well as some elements of church architecture.[7] Most Armenian castles made atypical usage of rocky heights, and featured curved walls and round towers, similar to those of the Hospitaller castles Krak des Chevaliers and Marqab.[39] The Cilician period also produced some important examples of Armenian art, notably the illuminated manuscripts of Toros Roslin, who was at work in Hromkla in the thirteenth century.[6]


    An illuminated manuscript of John the Apostle by Toros Roslin completed in 1268.

    Economy
    Throughout the years, Cilician Armenia had become a prosperous state due to its strategic position on the eastern shores of the Mediterranean. It was located at the juncture of many trade routes linking Central Asia and the Persian Gulf to the Mediterranean. The kingdom was thus important in spice trade, among other goods such as livestock, hides, wool, and cotton. Other important resources such as timber, grain, wine, raisins, and raw silk were also exported from the country.[6]
    During the reign of King Levon, the economy of Cilician Armenia progressed greatly and became heavily integrated with Western Europe. He secured agreements with Pisa, Genoa, and Venice, as well as the French and the Catalans, and granted them certain privileges such as tax exemptions in return for their business. In Ayas, Tarsus, Adana, and Mamistra, important European merchant communities and colonies came into existence, with their own churches, courts of law, and trading houses.[6][40] As French became the secondary language of Cilician nobility, the secondary language for Cilician commerce had become Italian due to the three Italian city-states' extensive involvement in Cilician economy.[6] Ayas, a major coastal city of the kingdom, had revitalized as a heart for East-to-West commerce during and after King Levon I's reign. This coastal city was a port and a market center, where spices, silk, cotton cloth, carpets and pearls from Asia, and finished cloth and metal products from the West were made available.[6] Marco Polo, for example, set out on his journey to China from Ayas in 1271.[40]
    In the thirteenth century, under the rule of Toros, Cilician Armenia already struck its own coins. Gold and silver coins, called dram and tagvorin, were struck at the royal mints of Sis and Tarsus. All foreign coins such as the Italian ducat, florin, and zecchino, the Greek besant, the Arab dirham, and the French livre were also accepted by merchants.

    Coin of the Cilician Armenian kingdom, ca. 1080–1375.

    Relegion
    The Catholicosate of the Armenian Apostolic Church followed its people in taking refuge outside of the Armenian highlands, which had turned into a battleground of Byzantine and Seljuk contenders. Its seat was first transferred to Sivas in 1058 in Cappadocia, where had existed a significant Armenian population. Later, it moved to various locations in Cilicia; Tavbloor in 1062; Dzamendav in 1066; Dzovk in 1116; and Hromkla in 1149. During King Levon I's rule, the Catholicos was located in distant Hromkla. He was assisted by fourteen bishops in administering the Armenian Church in the kingdom, a number which grew in later years. The archbishops' seats were located in Tarsus, Sis, Anazarba, Lambron, and Mamistra. There existed up to sixty monastic houses in Cilicia, although the exact locations of the majority of them remain unclear.[6]
    In 1198, the Catholicos of Sis, Grigor VI Apirat, proclaimed a union between the Armenian Church and the Roman Catholic Church; however, this had no notable effect, as the local clergy and populace was strongly opposed to such a union. The Western Church sent numerous missions to Cilician Armenia to help with rapprochement, but had limited results. The Franciscans were put in charge of this activity. John of Monte Corvino himself arrived in Cilician Armenia in 1288.[41]
    Het'um II became a Franciscan monk after his abdication. The Armenian historian Nerses Balients was a Franciscan and an advocate of union with the Latin Church. The papal claim of primacy did not contribute positively to the efforts for unity between the Churches.[42] Mkhitar Skewratsi, the Armenian delegate at the council in Acre in 1261, summed the Armenian frustration in these words:

    This is a This is the fifth dynasty of Armenia.

  39. #79
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    I think I see the problem

  40. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artifex View Post


    I think I see the problem
    I believe this was a genocide against Armenians, though there are arguments about whether it happened, or if it did whether it was genocide.

    Didn't Armenia get conquered by every empire in the region over the centuries?

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