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Thread: Why no Kongo, Italy, Sioux, Tannu Tuva etc

  1. #81
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    I think he meant the cucumber

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Infernal Dante View Post
    [...]
    This is the fifth dynasty of Armenia.
    None of which even attempts to answer my questions. Not even close.

    The simple fact is, you are completely unable to make any case prima fascie in favor of Armenia being a playable choice in Civ5.

    You haven't told us abut what kind of architecture was uniquely Armenian. You haven't suggested a single military asset that is uniquely Armenian. You haven't suggested a single thing that supports inclusion of Armenia as a polayable choice in Civ5, or really, any iteration of the Civiliztion series.

    ...

    If you want it to happen, therefor, you have exactly one viable option: do it yourself. Make a mod. Come up with the combination of UA, UUs, and/or UBs that will make playing Armenia something other than "<other civ here> but with a different color, flag, and list of city names".

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imalich View Post
    Well, figured i would post my own idea for Portugal, inspired by 'Tahitian Moon' and 'SamBC', mainly.

    Unique Ability(UA): Double production speed for pre-Renaissance naval units. Half unhappines for citizens in transcontinental cities founded by Portugal.

    Unique Building(UB): Feitoria. Replaces Harbor. Same benefits as harbor, and allows pre-Renaissance naval and civilian units built in this city to cross ocean tiles, albeit with doubled movement cost. Gives free +1 sight promotion to every naval unit built in this city. Costs no gold maintenance.

    Unique Unit(UU): Trading Ships. Replaces Work Boat. May be spent when adjacent to a city-state borders to make a mini-trade mission, generating some gold and influence with that city-state.
    Actually, I like these ... except the UU.

    What about taking a page from the Moai of the Polynesians or the Polder of the Dutch - give them a Unique Improvement instead. something coastal, that generates commerce the way Moai generate culture?

    Maybe also add a Polynesia-like ability, ONLY for Settlers, to Embark and/or cross Ocean tiles earlier, to encourage overseas settling. And flipside for the UA, increase unhappiness in all cities, based on the number of other Portugese cities on the same landmass ...?

  4. #84
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    Brainstorming is fun, so this looks like as good a place for my first post as any.

    Regarding Armenia: if they could be given their own unique flavor, I would welcome their inclusion. The problem is that I can’t think of what that flavor might be. Their location near Ararat might suggest something related to natural wonders – a heap of extra culture for a natural wonder within your borders, perhaps – but that in turn suggests exploration as a theme, which doesn’t fit them. It’s also noteworthy that Yerevan is the oldest city in the world with a documented foundation date. Not sure if that could be worked into anything. They seem like they should have a cultural tendency, but again, I’m not sure how you’d put that together.

    Portugal: the suggestion of gaining one gold per explored tile is pretty unique. Perhaps, to balance it, gold is only awarded for tiles that haven’t been explored by anybody? That might make them too weak on Pangaea maps, but it would still be quite powerful on island maps (unless Polynesia is nearby, haha). Either way, I think they should share Spain’s tilt toward exploration and colonization, but while Spain is flavored by conquest, Portugal should favor commerce. Just an opinion.

    I’d like to see another Native American culture make an appearance. I’d prefer the Sioux, but admittedly that’s mostly because they were a fixture in the early Civ games and it feels weird to leave them out (same with the Zulu). Not sure if a different tribe/culture would be more deserving. For the Sioux, the theme would either be some bonus tied to plains/grassland tiles or something that shows off Native American mythology. Perhaps a UA that boosts the effect of the Sioux’s chosen pantheon. That might need some balancing, but it seems like a place to start and it would give the Sioux a lot of versatility in terms of playstyle – their strategy would change dramatically depending on their starting location.

    Zulu. They could rival the Huns as a good ultra-early warmonger. For a UA, perhaps a bonus % to production when at war? If that’s too strong, limit it to unit production. The UU would complement this goal – cheap to build, low maintenance while at war. It would technically make the most sense to put it in the Classical era since they use iron, but there are already a ton of civs that want to fight in that era.

  5. #85
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    when at war
    Exploitable.
    Too easy to keep a 'token' war going with a conquered civ. Just let them keep one sheltered city.

  6. #86
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    On the idea of other Native American civs - what suggestions to people have beyond the Sioux?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Artifex View Post
    Exploitable.
    Too easy to keep a 'token' war going with a conquered civ. Just let them keep one sheltered city.
    True. I think you could work around it, though. Instead, have the bonus only kick in if there has been a hostile action within the last ten turns. I'd define 'hostile action' as destroying a unit, capturing a civilian or pillaging a tile - so simply moving a unit into a city's firing range once every ten turns isn't enough. I'm thinking that war with CS's shouldn't count, either (that probably goes without saying).

    Better?

    Quote Originally Posted by SamBC View Post
    On the idea of other Native American civs - what suggestions to people have beyond the Sioux?
    The Mississippian culture is a big one that comes to mind. Mounds would be an obvious UB, replacing an early culture building (monument or amphitheater).

    Aside from that, perhaps a southwestern culture would be a candidate - Navajo, Apache, etc. I don't know enough about them to try to piece together a theme/flavor, though.
    Last edited by Atzar; 11-29-2012 at 05:09 PM.

  8. #88
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    Better?
    Better yea, assuming there is a method already ingame to check against those details. I still think a wily player could arrange something. On hard difficulties a down and out AI would still produce units for you to kill.

    Cherokee, Navajo, or Apache would all work. Certainly stronger candidates than awkward Inuit proposals we've heard.

    Hmm..Sioux plains-Indian style might work well. UU Cavalry?

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atzar View Post
    True. I think you could work around it, though. Instead, have the bonus only kick in if there has been a hostile action within the last ten turns. I'd define 'hostile action' as destroying a unit, capturing a civilian or pillaging a tile - so simply moving a unit into a city's firing range once every ten turns isn't enough. I'm thinking that war with CS's shouldn't count, either (that probably goes without saying).

    Better?



    The Mississippian culture is a big one that comes to mind. Mounds would be an obvious UB, replacing an early culture building (monument or amphitheater).

    Aside from that, perhaps a southwestern culture would be a candidate - Navajo, Apache, etc. I don't know enough about them to try to piece together a theme/flavor, though.
    Navajo would be an intelligence and modern civilization. A quick little draft would be
    Code Talkers: Enemy civilizations will find it harder to send spies to your nation, and even harder to get the right information from you. 25% Bonus defending against spies, 75% chance that an enemy civilization will receive the wrong information.

    The Apaches would be quick raiders focused on the desert.
    Vital Raiding: After pillaging a tile with a resource on it, you gain the resource for 10 turns, 20 turns if you pillage it with a horseman.

    These are just a few ideas.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artifex View Post
    Better yea, assuming there is a method already ingame to check against those details. I still think a wily player could arrange something. On hard difficulties a down and out AI would still produce units for you to kill.

    Cherokee, Navajo, or Apache would all work. Certainly stronger candidates than awkward Inuit proposals we've heard.

    Hmm..Sioux plains-Indian style might work well. UU Cavalry?
    Cavalry would fit. Or, what about a War Chief GG replacement? It has the usual GG abilities, but has 4 movement. Also, adjacent enemy units suffer a combat penalty. This can be explained by a war cry, or perhaps by their habit of taking scalps. Not sure how that would fit on a noncombat unit, but it's different, at least.

    Quote Originally Posted by PachaMinnie View Post
    Navajo would be an intelligence and modern civilization. A quick little draft would be
    Code Talkers: Enemy civilizations will find it harder to send spies to your nation, and even harder to get the right information from you. 25% Bonus defending against spies, 75% chance that an enemy civilization will receive the wrong information.

    The Apaches would be quick raiders focused on the desert.
    Vital Raiding: After pillaging a tile with a resource on it, you gain the resource for 10 turns, 20 turns if you pillage it with a horseman.

    These are just a few ideas.
    The Apache one seems pretty balanced, depending on what the other Apache unique features are. I think the Navajo UA is a great concept, but I don't know that espionage is powerful enough overall for it to be their only gig. In my experience, espionage (when used against me) is more of an irritation than a major concern. Maybe it would be enough if the espionage system was expanded a bit - a few more options, at the very least.

    That may just be me, though. I usually play at King, so maybe Espionage is a much greater problem at higher difficulty levels.

  11. #91
    You understand that Armenia even before Ceh then surrounded by Muslim countries? If there would be Russia, Armenia schyas as Babylon was like, thank you very much Russia that it is, without it there would be no Armenia today. Turkey ************************************** and ************************.
    Last edited by Infernal Dante; 11-29-2012 at 10:54 PM.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by _Pax_ View Post
    None of which even attempts to answer my questions. Not even close.

    The simple fact is, you are completely unable to make any case prima fascie in favor of Armenia being a playable choice in Civ5.

    You haven't told us abut what kind of architecture was uniquely Armenian. You haven't suggested a single military asset that is uniquely Armenian. You haven't suggested a single thing that supports inclusion of Armenia as a polayable choice in Civ5, or really, any iteration of the Civiliztion series.

    ...

    If you want it to happen, therefor, you have exactly one viable option: do it yourself. Make a mod. Come up with the combination of UA, UUs, and/or UBs that will make playing Armenia something other than "<other civ here> but with a different color, flag, and list of city names".
    Armenia great country as Russia recognized from the very earliest, and the U.S. does not?)))) The whole of Asia and Europe knows about Armenian culture.

    URUARTU-Modern Armenia
    And you can tell me how do I create one such fashion?)
    Last edited by Infernal Dante; 11-29-2012 at 11:06 PM.

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Infernal Dante View Post
    And you can tell me how do I create one such fashion?)
    http://lmgtfy.com/?q=modding+Civilization+V+guide

    Be careful when searching for advice on how to modify Civilization V however: much of the information is out-of-date so you'll need to read all over the place at first to understand what still works and what doesn't work anymore.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Infernal Dante View Post
    Armenia great country [...]
    I'm not arguing that it isn't. However, being old is not enough. Being great is not enough. Being well-known is not enough.

    Armenia, to be worthy of official inclusion, needs to be "interesting to play". And that interest comes solely from what it has in the game, via it's Unique attributes (Ability, Buildings, Improvements, Units, etc).

    And you can tell me how do I create one such fashion?)
    Civilization 5 SDK. It should be in your Steam Library, under "tools".

  15. #95
    I'm not arguing that it isn't. However, being old is not enough. Being great is not enough. Being well-known is not enough.

    One must have Mc Donalds?)) With fatty burgers?))XD

  16. #96
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    This is a video game forum. Discussions of countries can be relevant where it's related to game content - hence this thread existing at all. However, how great or old a country or culture is is not a good argument in itself, and if that's the only basis for an argument that it should be included in the game, further posts on the matter may be considered off-topic. This thread is about which civs would be good additions, and why, considering the game, with reality as an adjunct to that.

    So, this is not about what Armenia (as a topical example) has brought to the world, but what it would bring to the game.

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Infernal Dante View Post
    One must have Mc Donalds?)) With fatty burgers?))XD
    Honestly? And insult aside?

    If America were not already included, I would argue against it just as strongly; I could easily see it being folded into the English.

    Seriously; it's not about how wonderful any nation/culture is or isn't. It's about how interesting it would be to PLAY them, within the game.

  18. #98
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    Sam BC - in the 50 civ thread + there are many Native American civs that have been suggested
    ===

    A couple I see that weren't mentioned in this thread: The Comanche :: Largest territory of any North American Civ ever, had the most horses ever of any plains civ, waged war against multiple nations (Mexico, Texas, and the US), fought in several wars and could be added in the Civil War scenario that almost came out and probably will come out as a DLC [Comanche were waging a war on Texas during the Civil War] and while sometimes less celebrated than the Sioux, they were easily the more successful nation and are still very well known in the US

    Other Native American civs include: Navajo/Anasazi/Pueblo [Desert River stucco civs], Seminole [swamp civ], Nazca [Desert Civ], Chachapoya [Cloud Mountains and Jungle trading empire the rivals of the Inca] etc.

  19. #99
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    Anasazi are the debatably-mythical progenitor of some of the Pueblo peoples, and the Navajo aren't a Pueblo people, just in the same area, AIUI.

  20. #100
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    You're right about that, SamBC. The Navajo people originate fro the Athabaskan culture - western Canada and into Alaska. Current understanding is that the Athabaskan progenitors of both the Navajo and Apache peoples migrated into the Southwest around 1400 CE.

    All hail Wikipedia.

  21. #101
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    I know the Navajo aren't the same people [see any earlier posts ] - I was just trying to group them into regions/play-ability designs since they would have more similar designs to one another.

    These are some of the less talked about I have mentioned that could represent several play styles on their own.

  22. #102
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    I think that to create a Portuguese Civilisation whose style of play is directed, in some manner, towards trans-oceanic expansion would constitute a futile and insipid attempt to placate the indignant players who are insisting on its inclusion. I say this, because to create a Portugal which is biased towards such a play style would be to make a meal of stale bread. There are many such civilizations already in existence, and historically, Portugal's territorial holdings are utterly eclipsed by those of other nations. They are almost comprehended by a large swathe of undeveloped land in South America, and a respectable holding in southern Africa. While it is not my purpose to disparage the efforts of any nation which has, through the chance of arms, increased its possessions about the mundane sphere, I do believe that Portugal ought not to be defined by those achievements which were more gloriously acquired by other nations.
    A circumstance which might be called analogous, would be the conversion of Spain to a naval power, as England is. Certainly, none may deny that Spain is heir to a grand maritime tradition, but I submit that any hopes of being remembered as the sovereign of the seas, were sunk at Trafalgar.
    A similar problem exists with maritime trade. I should think that Spain, Holland and England (and its other political manifestations), while not the pioneers that Portugal were, far exceeded the latter in the volume of trade which they conducted across the oceans.
    For these reasons, I cannot escape the conclusion, that Portugal's inclusion in this game would serve only to dress up an old civilisation in new colours.

  23. #103
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    Haters gotta hate.

  24. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by _Pax_ View Post
    Haters gotta hate.
    http://images.4chan.org/wsg/src/1353136813761.gif

    Any ideas for a Californian natives civ?

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    California doesn't really have any famous native groups. Issues of agriculture and a lack of cohesion of any native tribes into greater organizations did that. In California I am only really familiar with the Yurok and only because of their canoes and they are the largest native American population in California [Not saying much]

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    Yea California native populations were surprisingly small and unorganized.

    You won't find any serious Civ candidates there.

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    bandeirantes could be a scout UU with a bonus against barbs (say 150%), giving 1 population to a nearby city upon a cature of a barb camp.

  28. #108
    Please, no more European civilizations. We don't need every European state, contemporary or historical, represented when vast tracks of the world remain unrepresented.

    PS - The Comanches, the Pueblo Peoples, the Mississippians are all wonderful suggestions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tfordp View Post
    Right, gotcha. Google is my friend.

    So the emblem anandus posted represents the Austrian Chapter eagle and not the Poland-Lithuanian one? Am I missing a punchline somewhere?
    If you mean this image:

    You are wrong. This is Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth flag under Waza dynasty.

    Here is my rough vision of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.
    http://forums.2kgames.com/showthread...31#post2561231

    Thanks in advance to anyone who will take his time to read it and post suggestions/opinions without pointless trolling and hating.

  30. #110
    Yes ONLY americian Mc Donalds))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) )))) BURGERS)))))))

  31. #111
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    Okay, now you've gone to being nothing but insulting, "Infernal Dante".

    I have tried very carefully to speak only respectfully of Armenia, to point out that no matter how nice a place it is or was, no matter how old it is ... it doesn't bring enough to the game to justify it's inclusion. I have tried to keep the construction of my remarks as simple and straightforward as I could, so that Google Translate would get my meaning across to you as un-mangled as possible. I have even said, in as many words, that I think my own nation of America could have been considered a part of the English/British civilization, without any loss to the game.

    And all you can do, is descend to petty insults?

    ...

    Begone, cretin.

  32. #112
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    say 150%), giving 1 population to a nearby city
    Wildly imbalanced suggestions happen all the time on this forum. I think I've become somewhat numb to them. But you sir, made laugh and nearly choke on breakfast. WOW, NO. That is not ok.

  33. #113
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    Negative stereotypes are not acceptable, nor are any sort of veiled insult based on nationality (or gender, ethnicity, disability, and so forth). Direct insults are also not acceptable - if you think someone has done something wrong, use the report button to let us moderators know. Do not insult people in turn.

  34. #114
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    I have been fiddling with the idea of an Inuit civilization for a while. The only real problem I have faced is the lack of a major historical Inuit leader, but the idea is still interesting:

    Cold Feet (humorous UA title for lack of a better one): Land units can walk on ice tiles and can embark from and disembark onto ice tiles at 1 movement cost. Naval units can move through ice tiles as if through Coast tiles, but take 20 damage when ending a turn on an ice tile. Each city gets a free Granary.
    UU: Dog Sled - replaces the Horseman - does not require Horses; +50% combat bonus in snow and tundra; +2 Culture if garrisoned in a city
    UI: Igloo - must be built in snow; +3 food and +1 production; unlocked with agriculture; an extra +1 production after construction; an extra +1 gold after economics

    Obviously, the Inuits' start would be biased towards Snow and Tundra. They would probably also have to start near lots of Deer, Furs, and Whales. Another thing that might be necessary for consistency is to ensure that the Inuits start on a landmass that is connected to another landmass or two by ice, so that they can make full use of their unique ability. Obviously, this civ has its limitations, and would only work well under certain conditions, but as of yet there have been no cold-based civilizations, so I think this is fun to think about as a niche civ. It could have a pretty significant early game exploration and expansion bonus if things worked out and would have a defensive bonus from being able to store units on ice. Being surrounded by snow may normally be crippling, but hopefully the Igloo makes up for that.

  35. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by BubbleBoy View Post
    I have been fiddling with the idea of an Inuit civilization for a while. The only real problem I have faced is the lack of a major historical Inuit leader, but the idea is still interesting:

    Cold Feet (humorous UA title for lack of a better one): Land units can walk on ice tiles and can embark from and disembark onto ice tiles at 1 movement cost. Naval units can move through ice tiles as if through Coast tiles, but take 20 damage when ending a turn on an ice tile. Each city gets a free Granary.
    "Icewalker" or "Ice Walker", maybe?

    If your version is not technically feasible, you could also go with a Tundra-based parallel of Hiawatha's UA: treat all Tundra (and snow?) tiles as Roads, for all purposes ...

    UU: Dog Sled - replaces the Horseman - does not require Horses; +50% combat bonus in snow and tundra; +2 Culture if garrisoned in a city
    Replace the Chariot instead - a dog sled basically IS a dog-pulled, snow-required, wheel-less chariot, after all.

    UI: Igloo - must be built in snow; +3 food and +1 production; unlocked with agriculture; an extra +1 production after construction; an extra +1 gold after economics
    +3 food is a bit steep. +2 maybe. Also, wouldn't restrict it to snow - Tundra should be fine for it too. Should remove Forests if done on Tundra, though.

  36. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by BubbleBoy View Post
    I have been fiddling with the idea of an Inuit civilization for a while. The only real problem I have faced is the lack of a major historical Inuit leader, but the idea is still interesting:

    Cold Feet (humorous UA title for lack of a better one): Land units can walk on ice tiles and can embark from and disembark onto ice tiles at 1 movement cost. Naval units can move through ice tiles as if through Coast tiles, but take 20 damage when ending a turn on an ice tile. Each city gets a free Granary.
    UU: Dog Sled - replaces the Horseman - does not require Horses; +50% combat bonus in snow and tundra; +2 Culture if garrisoned in a city
    UI: Igloo - must be built in snow; +3 food and +1 production; unlocked with agriculture; an extra +1 production after construction; an extra +1 gold after economics

    Obviously, the Inuits' start would be biased towards Snow and Tundra. They would probably also have to start near lots of Deer, Furs, and Whales. Another thing that might be necessary for consistency is to ensure that the Inuits start on a landmass that is connected to another landmass or two by ice, so that they can make full use of their unique ability. Obviously, this civ has its limitations, and would only work well under certain conditions, but as of yet there have been no cold-based civilizations, so I think this is fun to think about as a niche civ. It could have a pretty significant early game exploration and expansion bonus if things worked out and would have a defensive bonus from being able to store units on ice. Being surrounded by snow may normally be crippling, but hopefully the Igloo makes up for that.
    In response to your idea, the Dog Sled is a neat UU and the ability to cross ice is okay. But the Igloos are way too powerful (six total output on a tile where everybody else gets zero?). I don’t see why they should have a free granary, either. I see what you tried to do, but rather than giving them a lot of food, I’d like them to be able to survive on very little. Letting them build a metropolis on the ice doesn't make sense.

    I wouldn't go out of my way making snow tiles habitable, even if that does seem to fit them. Even if you throw enough food and production at them, it’s still not viable because they still aren't going to get enough luxury resources. Instead, focus on making the tundra work for them. I’d give them the ability “Citizens working tundra tiles only consume one food,” either through the UA or a UB (would likely replace granary). That way they can build functional cities, even if they’ll never grow as big as a farmed city in the middle of grassland (which is as it should be).

    But where do you go from there? “Can survive in poor terrain” is great and all, but that’s an oddity, not a strategy. Their exploration ability is unreliable – if it doesn't give you early access to other habitable land, then it’s not helping you. As it is, they don’t grow big enough to achieve a science victory, they have no inclination towards war and they have no economic boost so the diplomacy victory isn't a great option either. They’ll be behind in tech, and their unremarkable production won’t give them a very good shot at any of the wonders that cultural players covet. So what can you add that gives them a fair shot at winning?

  37. #117
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    Dogsled would be neat. But it is not military at all. They are used to assist hunting and travel. Maybe a scout replacement with 3 movement. That would be a neat advantage that almost fits the subject matter.

    The real problem is that we are talking about methods people used to scrounge out a meek existence in a harsh environment, and pretending that they are advantages.

    The Inuit don't only lack a leader, they lack a civilization (for game purposes) no military conquests, no cultural heritage, no significant impact on history at all. That is OK! Polynesia is a good example that it can still work. But they had a creative uniqueness that demonstrably added value. That is the task ahead of you. Not just pretending that ice and tundra tiles are amazing farmland if you build a snow hut on top of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Artifex View Post
    Wildly imbalanced suggestions happen all the time on this forum. I think I've become somewhat numb to them. But you sir, made laugh and nearly choke on breakfast. WOW, NO. That is not ok.
    why? you should invest in these uints to get an advantage, build them in place of other things of importance early in the game.
    barb camps are not that dense (unless you play huge marathon game with reduced number of AI players), they are guarded and AIs hunt for them too. brute has str 8, and scout only 4. +150% is 10 thats slightly more than 8, add defensive bonuses to it.
    player can build 2-3 of these units and scout for camps, i estimate it will give a number of additional citizens maybe 3-5 before the medieval era. after that it will not be very strong as camps become rare and +1 pop is not big compared to your total population at that time.
    i play small map quick speed usually maybe on other settings theres much more camps so the effect sould be scaled proportionally (probability instead of guaranteed 1 pop). anyway your reaction is not very smart.

  39. #119
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    theres already an innuit civ mod under construction at civfanatics


  40. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by SamBC View Post
    Didn't Armenia get conquered by every empire in the region over the centuries?
    maybe it should give a bunch of culture points to any civ that conqueres or liberates it
    not a useful trait when you play armenia but funny if you dont and armenia is in the game.. exploitable though

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