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Thread: Some thoughts on my MP free for all day..

  1. #3321
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike H 31 View Post
    .... the Greek who has been left totally alone, found all artifacts, and raced out to 12 techs (later found out it was by hitting islands and rushing libraries).... My first city is flipped by Greek. I got the KT about same time, lost it trying to regain my city 7v4.
    Given this data, I would have been shocked if the Greek player DIDN'T win. Sometimes, you can't overcome the sum total of all the setbacks in a game unless the other player is incompetent. Anyone who brings cruisers/cats asap isn't incompetent. I often work gold/whale + 1 tree if I have whale in my cap as the +1 pop happens so fast (5 turns) but that's neither here nor there. It likely wouldn't have changed the outcome assuming those same factors applied.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike H 31 View Post
    My question is when do you/ should I attack Greek? Horses? Legions? Cats? Knights?
    You are a competent player so you really don't need advice. If you've only lost 1 time against Greeks, it's not even statistically significant to suggest you need to change anything from what you normally do (expansion + long game).

    Early legions/fleet can work but it has to be early enough. They won't do jack against a hoplite army. So if you pick a city that's well defended and/or it's going to take forever to get there due to poor sea access (map placement matters a lot when playing against Spanish), you're burning turns on units that will likely not produce much fruit. Once you go legions w/Spanish, it's usually a sell-out. Meaning, if it doesn't bear some fruit, you've likely lost the game. Another alternative, is to use legions to take all the other civs besides the Greeks & use that as expansion & then leverage that for tech/gold, etc....

    Going long game can be effective IF you absolutely control the oceans, which plays to Spain's strengths (I tend to favor this too). You should be able to expand unmolested for quite some time & it's likely Greek will always go for straight for Steam Power since Navigation is gone. Use that knowledge to your advantage & expand hard, get your markets (you'll need them) & then time your backfill (just like you do already). Try to get at least 1 production city & remember, first to Industrialization is usually the deciding factor in long games & bombers > cruisers/tanks/etc..., always.

    One minor thing I try to always do is keep at least 1 attack-capable unit (archer or warrior or whatever) on all my Spanish galleons as they are moving around the globe. If the opportunity to do a drop-off occurs, I always go for it, even if I'm in democracy. This is typically a more efficient way to both slow down your opponent's expansion (rushing hoplites is EXPENSIVE) while keeping you safe by preventing them from accumulating enough resources to rush an lightning offensive. This approach can synergize well with the long-game strategy.

    When I do go legion, I go for speed & power delivered asap. I try to use singles (didn't always do this) until I need to make an army which can save healing while also allowing one to take a city in 1 turn. For example, 6 legions (2 of them vet) w/vet Gallion fleet can wreak havoc on any cities w/o armies. Also try to scout multiple cities w/your galleons & strategically select your initial beachhead city. Parallelize your building/routing to said beach-head to try to prevent wasting turns, etc.... Obviously build your Galleons in Ancient to save $ & tech to Medieval before attacking. Blah-blah, usual stuff...

    Generally, I like legions, cats, or bombers as Spanish should be able to control oceans, which is where Spain should be headed to leverage Navigation early. Knights are better suited for land delivery strategies. Cats can work nicely due to easy tech speed & fact Spanish already have Navigation.

    I know you already know all this stuff. Only 1 loss ever to Greeks, that's already a very solid track record.

    best regards...

  2. #3322
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    Yeah, that's what I meant to say lol.

  3. #3323
    Played a FFA with romans. Tried rushing a settler very early, after only 1 warrior was out. Settled that city too. Used it for more warriors due to Zulu in game, and that made Rome an immediate settler pump for early start. I liked the effect it had as compared to 2-4 warriors, growing, or teching horse/bronze. Like the early versitility the small twist provided. Thoughts? But expanded out, knights win game. Pretty standard.

  4. #3324
    Played a FFA with my Spanish, vs Decleaters Germans, someone's Greeks (my new worst enemy), someone else's Spanish, and ai Arabs. I settle 1 spot over which sits me on a hill, with balanced spot + oxen. Hammer 2 warriors out then rush a 3rd. Find 3 Barb's, a friendly, the Arab warrior, and German warrior steals a one flag Barb from me. Sensing no quick rush I go straight to expanding. Hammered settler from capital finds a double fish spot, 100 g settler hops on rushed galleon and finds a 1 square island with fish. About this time the ai offers me religion for nav. Legions it is. Hammer out a barracks while researching to iron. Spend my gold reserve on galleons to have them scout while I rush a legion a turn. Find Berlin and rapidly expanding Germans to South, he got to 5-7 cities very fast, I sensed either legions or knights coming hard. Athens was just north of me, 7 pop with library already... At this point, where would you send Fundy legions / fleet to? Take out biggest threat? Or take out weak ones to gain leverage on biggest threat? Due to my recent game where me picking a fight let Greeks win uncontested, I went to Athens. 7 vet legions and an Archer with fleet support. He had 2 hoplite armies, but luckily Fundy tipped the scales to an easy 1 turn victory. (attack twice, retreat, army up, finishing blow) ( learned that from someone on forum years ago so thank you). Took legions north further to take out Spain (alot longer, more drawn out fight with just my 2 armies). Then looped around to wipe out Arab ai with same force. Both legion army's picked up infiltration to make attack like 24pts. Having total control now of North 75% of map, I finally researched to code, got out of Fundy and started spamming cities everywhere. During my whole battle with everyone else, I kept my cap just hammering out legions and pikeman waiting for the German special. I even used a scientist to get steam and rush a cruiser fleet at cap bc I was so sure Germans had a massive assault on the way. It never came. Tech race was still close 22-19, and I tech both money techs in about 6 turns each. After that a go demo, and work all gold, bringing in 800 per turn. Pop Oxford in Athens which has bee hammer banking all along and I'm sure he'd quit. Nope. Put a fleet together, hit his first city 81v32. He stays. Caught me off guard to even have to finish it. He had so many single units in his capital that the game went on another hour, he even got to mod infantry and tanks, and kept his capital occupied by dropping off more units by boat when I got close. Took completely boxing in his capital to eventually wear him down. Glad he never tried an offensive around back to steal advance flight bc I might have lossed if that happened. Fun game. Seemed like a good fair player. Rare match.

  5. #3325
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    Sounds like a fun game! You got lucky I think though, I've found that the longer I leave the Germans alone, the higher my chances of losing become. At least you got to take down your new arch-enemy, the Geeks!

  6. #3326
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike H 31 View Post
    Played a FFA with romans. Tried rushing a settler very early, after only 1 warrior was out. Settled that city too. Used it for more warriors due to Zulu in game, and that made Rome an immediate settler pump for early start. I liked the effect it had as compared to 2-4 warriors, growing, or teching horse/bronze. Like the early versitility the small twist provided. Thoughts? But expanded out, knights win game. Pretty standard.
    Expanding early instead of collecting gold/rushing is a risky proposition. The reward can be handsome, but it really only works if your opponent is not aggressive or far away from you. As soon as your opponent starts bugging you with a vet warrior army or horse armies, you will be out of resources to hold them off and that's it. Stretching yourself too thin means free cities for your opponent.

  7. #3327
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    it might be contrary to many experts but i always work whale from the start with spain. given 2 trees you will have 2 warriors in 5 turns. working whale/gold and adding in the 2nd tree after 5 turns you'll have your 2 warriors in 7 turns. those 2 turns might cost you the game, but if it doesn't you are in a much stronger position going forward.
    i've played decleater dozens of times. pretty enjoyable since he got past the usa phase. i'm surprised he didn't have a knight rush for you at some point, especially left alone for so long.

  8. #3328
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike H 31 View Post
    Played a FFA with romans. Tried rushing a settler very early, after only 1 warrior was out. Settled that city too. Used it for more warriors due to Zulu in game, and that made Rome an immediate settler pump for early start. I liked the effect it had as compared to 2-4 warriors, growing, or teching horse/bronze. Like the early versitility the small twist provided. Thoughts? But expanded out, knights win game. Pretty standard.
    with zulu in the game you just can't afford to do anything until you have however many warriors out to scout all land routes to rome. you can't let him sneak up on you. once you achieve this i'm all for rushing a settler before teching bw.

  9. #3329
    I wish I took a screenshot of the crapshoot I was just dealt. Lol. I'm Spain. Vs 2 Zulu, each who already split the other 2 caps. The year is 2800bc. On one side of Madrid is the blue vet Zulu WA, on the other side of Madrid is Amos Otis jr or something white Zulu vet WA... The future did not look good, but I tried to fight it out. I got very lucky that on their first attacks, both WA took double wounds to my single warriors. Gave me time to army up. I knew I couldn't go 4 warriors and counter, or the other army would walk in. I managed 1 Barb for 40 and 1 hut for 25 before the Zulu sandwich hit me. I grow to 3, worked gold, and sold a warrior to hit my 100g. Rush a galleon, and a 2nd settler, and hit the islands figuring the mainland would be a complete lost cause. Found a string of 1 tile islands with fish or whale, and they grew up to 4/4/2 in cap. 20 beakers per turn through alpha/write/col. Rushed 3 settlers out of one island and went looking for the next. Rushed another galleon and 2 more settlers from cap, went other direction. Worked all gold, kept expanding thinking that if the Zulu fought each other, I might have a chance. Got all the way up to 180 gold a turn, and then got a GS for my 500 milestone. Switch to science, get democracy, and backfill to a tech deficit of 23/25. I see both money techs are open and think I might have a chance. GS corp, and set tech to indust which is 4 turns away... This must have caught his attention bc next turn he GS indust, GB Oxford, + GB Leos. The next turn was a barrage of single bombers, and cruiser fleets picking off all my islands. I was still far away from flight, and knew I couldn't even come close to matching his production if I could surprise attack and steal advance flight. I'm pretty sure there was no possible way to win this based on the first 12 turns, but I'm curious of anyone else sees anything I could have done that different.

  10. #3330
    After my 2 year break from playing I felt pretty rusty until recently. Went 15-5 in first 20 FFA, but now I feel back confident regardless of civ/map/Challenger. (Not that I never lose, just back to feeling confident lol). I think the major learning point recently was remembering the vaule of production. At first it was 100g city as settler pump, the surround the coastline with islands. It was actually watching a 2010 Dukeblue video that reminded me the vaule of having multiple production cities... My last game was completely changed by a 2 forest city just banking hammers until I made that into 2/3rds of my cruiser fleet a time I didn't have the gold to make it. Played a game as Rome recently where aimlessly banking hammers in anchient inland cities became samurai castle, east India, and Oxford... Those are cities I wouldn't have even settled my first few games.

    Just a small personal detail I was forgetting.

    Recent Lesson #2. People are dumb. And camping their forests early makes them even dumber. We've all probably had a fortified warrior get attacked by an Archer army in a near 50/50 battle. But earlier today I randomed Zulu. Ibwalk in on the English AI who was only 8 tiles away from me. Start pumping impis out from both cities. First player I come across is China. I have 2 warriors near so I decide to camp trees and wait for the vet to show up and army up. During turn 2 of sitting on 2 of his 4 forest, he armies up, and attacks one of my warriors, leaving his cap empty for my other warrior to walk in.. thank you. My army starts walking west of Beijing, and I find an Aztec warrior. He retreats back to capital and I follow. It's already 2200bc. So I figure no point in attacking, might as well use the army to camp 1 of his 2 trees. I begin to fortify, and next turn bring a single warrior over to camp his other tree. Right away he armies up, and attacks the single warrior, leaving his cap empty for the army to walk in.. other player (Egypt) I never found then quits, but it was obviously over. Those 2 players handed me the game. I understand getting Zulu camped is a rough start, and I'd gamble to get rid of then too, but they could have at least waited till they had a 4th warrior. Dumbest thing I've ever seen, twice in 5 minutes.

  11. #3331
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    What's your gamer tag?

  12. #3332
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike H 31 View Post
    I wish I took a screenshot of the crapshoot I was just dealt. Lol. I'm Spain. Vs 2 Zulu, each who already split the other 2 caps. The year is 2800bc. On one side of Madrid is the blue vet Zulu WA, on the other side of Madrid is Amos Otis jr or something white Zulu vet WA... The future did not look good, but I tried to fight it out. I got very lucky that on their first attacks, both WA took double wounds to my single warriors. Gave me time to army up. I knew I couldn't go 4 warriors and counter, or the other army would walk in. I managed 1 Barb for 40 and 1 hut for 25 before the Zulu sandwich hit me. I grow to 3, worked gold, and sold a warrior to hit my 100g. Rush a galleon, and a 2nd settler, and hit the islands figuring the mainland would be a complete lost cause. Found a string of 1 tile islands with fish or whale, and they grew up to 4/4/2 in cap. 20 beakers per turn through alpha/write/col. Rushed 3 settlers out of one island and went looking for the next. Rushed another galleon and 2 more settlers from cap, went other direction. Worked all gold, kept expanding thinking that if the Zulu fought each other, I might have a chance. Got all the way up to 180 gold a turn, and then got a GS for my 500 milestone. Switch to science, get democracy, and backfill to a tech deficit of 23/25. I see both money techs are open and think I might have a chance. GS corp, and set tech to indust which is 4 turns away... This must have caught his attention bc next turn he GS indust, GB Oxford, + GB Leos. The next turn was a barrage of single bombers, and cruiser fleets picking off all my islands. I was still far away from flight, and knew I couldn't even come close to matching his production if I could surprise attack and steal advance flight. I'm pretty sure there was no possible way to win this based on the first 12 turns, but I'm curious of anyone else sees anything I could have done that different.
    amos otis has been using the zulu crutch for most of the past decade. no shame to lose to him, especially with the gb's. that's one downside to waiting so long to backfill i'd say, giving him the bonus gp's for monarchy and invention.
    thats one case where gs'ing indust. would have been better than corp. at least you would deny him the indust. gold bonus to build bombers with. who would have seen that coming though.

  13. #3333
    At what point do you guys normally choose to backfill? I have a habit of hitting midevil/COL and just going all gold, expansion for a long time. I make a point to keep defenses and everything secure enough (I think I play alot off Rome/Spain bc I love legions). Most of my games I expand right past the midgame skipping knights/cats entirely. But as soon as I do backfill I get demo and am doing 300 science a turn with the realization I could have won 30 minutes ago when my bombers destroy the single Archer in his cap lol. In general, I don't believe most of the early to mid tech bonuses are worth getting. Most of my games I concede every bonus before maybe University/Engineering/indust, and end up with a major advantage at that point. The first 40-55 turns seen so much more important to maximize production and gold rather than science.

  14. #3334
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    generally you're right, with indust. and corp. being the tech bonuses you must get in line for. for me its more based on the gold, when i have the settlers all rushed, or the knights deployed, or maybe a library or 2 in huge island cities, i'll switch to tech and get going.

    got in a weird one with from the hip and danlink. link is an american user who i had muted. couldn't remember why so i played him a couple recent games. i go spain to counter his america, and get a galleon/kt combo about 5 turns in. link paused a couple times, but if barb glitching is his thing i can hang with that. i find his borders the same turn he finds aw. i get pushed out so i have to move next to empty washington to declare war. what do i see there? only every early wonder you can imagine. he's got the pyramid, collosus, hgb, eitc, and of course the gw. i'm flabbergasted, and quit a couple turns later. it showed him with 8 cultural items altogether. i didn't see a settled gp, so i assume they were all wonders. his culture border got gigantic before i left.
    needless to say i won't forget why he's muted next time i run across him. if that hack/glitch goes mainstream i will finally be freed from my endless pursuit of the perfect civilization.

  15. #3335
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    fun h2h game last night, my japan vs aztecs. i walk in on athens, then take out delhi in 2900. he grabs paris in around 2700. the ark is right off the coast of athens, and i decide i better take it when i get to 100g, rather than risk him getting it. it doesn't help that i go on to get hbr, pottery, and alpha from barbs. finally i get 100, but he gets soc and flips delhi before i nab the ark. he has a HA and i'm on my heels. i don't have a barracks and can't protect myself with counters (he killed my vet WA), so embarrassingly i need to army up with pikes to ensure i keep my caps. i flip delhi back and land my kt cannon to finally take out his HA. of course i lose 9-6, but manage to army up there as well. i have only 2 island cities to go with my 3 caps, but i work gold and grow before rushing a barracks in kyoto and library in athens. he is pulling away in cities and tech but my luck turns when i get monarchy 1st. i use the gb i just got to rush sam castle, then get a GL with my free GP. i work up an elite march PA while i tech to knights, then hit a nearby supercity of his with around 54 attack (and finally kill his pesky HA). he realizes that he can't deal with those numbers and surrenders. i think i would have rolled thru paris and his cap well before he could get rifles or cruisers in place.

  16. #3336
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    Nice one! I've never had any luck with the japs for some reason. Seems like I always lose with em

  17. #3337
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    their knights are great, made more so because you can get to them pretty quick once you establish some growth/tech cities. you've got to get a decent start though, so a 1 flag barb or fish in kyoto really helps.

  18. #3338
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    Quote Originally Posted by danthechan View Post
    generally you're right, with indust. and corp. being the tech bonuses you must get in line for. for me its more based on the gold, when i have the settlers all rushed, or the knights deployed, or maybe a library or 2 in huge island cities, i'll switch to tech and get going.

    got in a weird one with from the hip and danlink. link is an american user who i had muted. couldn't remember why so i played him a couple recent games. i go spain to counter his america, and get a galleon/kt combo about 5 turns in. link paused a couple times, but if barb glitching is his thing i can hang with that. i find his borders the same turn he finds aw. i get pushed out so i have to move next to empty washington to declare war. what do i see there? only every early wonder you can imagine. he's got the pyramid, collosus, hgb, eitc, and of course the gw. i'm flabbergasted, and quit a couple turns later. it showed him with 8 cultural items altogether. i didn't see a settled gp, so i assume they were all wonders. his culture border got gigantic before i left.
    needless to say i won't forget why he's muted next time i run across him. if that hack/glitch goes mainstream i will finally be freed from my endless pursuit of the perfect civilization.
    That sounds like he glitched AW. There is a way of triggering an artifact X times. I first encountered that exploit several years ago and thought it would be the end of civ MP. That glitch luckily is not well known and not that easy to exploit (based on my limited knowledge, quite unstable). Looks like he managed to trigger AW 5-8 times. Pretty sure it just goes through the available wonders in a certain order.

    If that glitch becomes common, you can pretty much call it a day with MP. The first time this was done to me, my really really bad opposition kept on building galley fleets and other horrible armies out of nowhere. Turns out he got about 4000g from 7cities ... I still won though, which is the sad part.

  19. #3339
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    got frozen last night by an american player who wasn't even in contact with me. used to be not so easy it seemed. SO many bad sports these days. i chalk it up to generations of kids who learn competition and sportsmanship online, as opposed to face to face. you relied on your friends to give you game, and if you pulled that crap you'd end up relegated to playing barbies with sis.
    after i gave up on that game i got in a great one against rowdy roddys japanese and i duh man's russia. roddy got to me 1st with a cat army, taking over a prime 3 city island. i got cruisers and knights and were taking it back, but he got to stay in dem and got the money techs 1st. always good to be fighting over your enemies cities, while yours are left alone to flourish.

  20. #3340
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    got in a real slug fest with my old buddy mawpawk, my japan vs his germany, india and zulu humans, and aztec ai. i have played him many times in the past, but not for a long time. we actually went from playing civ to playing bad company 2 together, so its been a while since we started.
    his strategy, like alot of the best players, is based on speed. he doesn't bank a ton of elite WA's before going to knights, instead going to legions when the time was right to exert pressure. i took out india, on a great choke point to a very large section of the mainland. he got the aztecs (who found 7 cities), but not before i sold them about 100 gold worth of techs. he took out the zulu too, but had to switch to legions to do it. with my gold and safe zone i expanded out well, and took the ark after building a temple in dehli. he finally landed east of kyoto and took 3 cities. i was forced to waste a gs on gunpowder, which he took from me shortly after. he also got monarchy, which got him to knights.
    i launched my own counter attack in the south, from a flipped city. my culture was huge, made more so by going to pop 20 in delhi with the hgb. he got to indust. 1st, but i got to corp. we switched to tanks and had a lengthy dance of carnage. the turning point was when i came after the 3 cities he took early. he defended with a battleship, but i formed a fleet in delhi to sink it. my fleet lost to his single ship, and i was in big trouble. if i win that i can get those cities, while patrolling his shores to keep fleets from forming. we still fought back and forth until he went for the kill. he settled a little city on a huge island up north, where i had multiple big cities. he cranked out taks from it and eventually overran the whole island. at this point he was finally able to flip 2 cities and it was time to concede. all of this by about 1500 ad. hopefully i'll run into him again soon.

  21. #3341
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    I was wondering if this game was still playable online and I guess this answers my question. Is it better to play on a xbox 1 or 360? Wanted to start playing again been a long time and I miss this game a lot.

  22. #3342
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    I play on both. No diffference in gameplay. Same lobby on both systems too.

  23. #3343
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    oh yeah, playable and populated. i would say the xbone is slightly smoother, but it is prone to some random freezes i hadn't seen before. i haven't seen any 4000 bc freezes due to not restarting.

  24. #3344
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    Ok cool I going to have to dust off the old xbox 360 then!

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