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Thread: How can new players fairly compete?

  1. #1
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    How can new players fairly compete?

    Hello,

    I've recently started playing Evolve since it has gone free to play. I'm enjoying the game so far but I'm having some trouble understanding a few things.

    My understanding is (and please correct me if I'm mistaken about anything) that if you bought the game 1.5 years ago then you now have all the characters unlocked and all or almost all of the perks unlocked. However, if you just started playing since it went free you only initially have access to one specific character a week that happens to be in the free rotation and no perks. New players can accumulate ingame currency to buy characters and perks but the process is quite slow and inefficient -- for example, over the last few days I've played about 20 hours up to level 23 and I've only unlocked 1 character, a handful of perks (which I now regret purchasing) and have about 10k ingame currency left.

    Perks in this game are pretty obviously a big deal at this point. We're not talking about things like 0.5% damage or things that have drawbacks like other games -- such as something like +5% damage but also -5% move speed -- but rather just flat increases of things like -16% damage taken, +15% move speed, etc. A situation where some people have perks and others don't is a pretty big disparity.

    Now, I understand that it would be unfair if people who paid money for the game were put on the same level as people who got it for free, and am not suggesting that. My problem is that, as far as I can see, there's no way for me to buy characters or perks with real money. It doesn't even seem possible to buy the original Evolve game to unlock the founder bonus that other people have either. At the time of this post Evolve doesn't appear to be purchasable on Steam or on the 2k store.

    So basically I'm in a situation where I've played about 20 hours, enjoy the game, want to take it a lot more seriously, and am willing to give the developers money for it (since they deserve it for making a great game). However, I'm routinely being matched against people that have all the characters and perks, and therefore a significant advantage over me, and am offered no avenue to pay to catch up despite being absolutely willing to do so.

    While I enjoy the game, I can't bring myself to play a game that forces people to play with such disadvantages. I'd feel the same way if I were forced to play WoW without a level 100 talent but with people who had them, League of Legends without runes vs people with runes or CS:GO without access to m4a1 or AK-47 but with people who have access to everything. Basically Evolve is a cool game with tons of potential that has been poorly set up and poorly marketed and therefore ruined for anyone wanting to get into it at this stage and take it seriously If things change in the future I'd absolutely reconsider picking it up again, but for now it seems pretty clear that there's no place for someone like me.

  2. #2
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    While you do state some fair points, most of it is just not reasonable. First, we, the founders, don't have every single character unlocked, or all of the perks. We do receive all the variations for free, but we still had to buy the characters and perks we didn't have. The fact that you spent a lot of keys on perks that didn't really suit your gameplay is entirely your problem. Upgrade only the perks you know you will use a lot, like movement speed, feeding speed and cooldown reduction. monsters are 8k each, which is more than reasonable. Plus, if you really lose games because someone has 15% more movement speed than you, then probably this game isn't for you indeed. I've beaten many monsters with fully upgraded perks while I used only the rocket perk, and not fully upgraded too. So don't blame the perks, blame your gameplay style and choice of tactics. Skill > Stats.
    "Stand in the ashes of a trillion dead souls and ask the ghosts if honor matters. The silence is your answer."

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nydex View Post
    if you really lose games because someone has 15% more movement speed than you, then probably this game isn't for you indeed. I've beaten many monsters with fully upgraded perks while I used only the rocket perk, and not fully upgraded too. So don't blame the perks, blame your gameplay style and choice of tactics. Skill > Stats.
    I can't help but feel as if the impression I've given off is that I'm some random that has picked up the game, gone into it with no idea whatsoever, gone 0-10 or something and is looking for something to blame. At least, that's the impression I got from Nydex's reply (and probably at least a handful of other people would think so too if he/she does). If that's the case, then you've fundamentally missed the point of my post I'm sorry to say. Perhaps that's my fault for not stating my points clearly, though, so allow me to rephrase.

    I understand there is a huge skill component to the game and that a highly skilled player with no perks will outperform an unskilled player with all the perks, I never argued otherwise. However, if you don't recognise that perks play a significant role in a match between otherwise similarly skilled players, I don't really know what to say. You're entitled to your opinion, but it's an opinion I'd strongly disagree with.

    I'm reluctant to link the following because of how it will come across, but I feel I'm losing credibility because people are reading this assuming that I've on some 20% winrate and am looking for something to blame.



    Here are my stats with the monster in the current free rotation. By no means am I trying to boast, I just want to suggest that I'm not new to competitive gaming. Like other games before this, such as WC3, SC2, CS:GO, etc., I take the game seriously, analyse my gameplay and mistakes, try my best to improve and feel like I play it at least reasonably well for someone with as little experience as myself, but of course by no means a pro. Please don't let this detract from my main point.

    My original post was sparked by a conversation I was having with a friend who has the founder bonuses and the things he was telling me he got straight off the bat. So, as it happens, he bought the game when it was launched and I didn't. Therefore he has a significant head start which I can't close the gap on. If I could wind back the clock and just have bought the game 1.5 years ago so I could be on a level playing field with the more serious players I would, but I can't; and I don't appear to be able to do anything about it -- I can't buy the game now and I can't buy characters or perks. If I could just pay the same thing that you guys paid to get the same edge you guys have there would be no problem here. Or perhaps if there were some micro-transaction option to catch up. But (and correct me if I'm mistaken) there isn't.

    Consider a situation where SC2 (Starcraft 2) has gone free to play and just picks it up now as opposed to when it was released years ago and as a result he only has a 180 food limit compared to the default 200 food limit. Suppose he went on the SC2 forums and made a post about it being unfair and someone replied saying "I've beaten people who have 200 food armies while using my 180 food army, skill > food" or something to that effect. Obviously a skilled player with a 180 food limit can beat an unskilled player with a 200 food limit, in the same way that someone with no perks can beat a monster rolling around with extra move speed, damage reduction, feeding speed and movement...

    I don't feel like I can illustrate my point any more clearly unfortunately. I just want a level playing field. I understand that founders paid for the game and I didn't and that's why they're getting bonuses, but I don't even have the option of paying what they paid for the same bonuses.

  4. #4
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    You are doing pretty well in the game Jarra.

    As it has been said, while the F2P experience might be limiting at the start it should not be once you progress.

    You could always purchase the game, it's very cheap on the websites and unlock all the essential characters (If that's what you want).

    Most of the people just stick with the one or two characters and play with them over time. We, Founders have to collect the keys in order to purchase the perks too.
    I am a Community Moderator, not an official 2K Representative

  5. #5
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    Thank you for your reply Thisaint.

    I wasn't aware that the game was actually purchasable at this point. I can't find it on the Steam store at all and I can't find it on the 2K website store. Perhaps I'm missing something glaringly obvious, but searching 'evolve' on the 2K store only brings up merchandise and Evolve doesn't seem to be in a list of 'all games' either. When I open the DLC tab for Evolve Stage 2 on Steam, I'm told 'there is no downloadable content available for this game'. If the game is available for purchase, the developers don't seem to be making it obvious :P

    My entire point was that it puts newer players in an awkward spot if they're behind for not purchasing the game and are unable to purchase it now, or at least something to catch them up. If the game is available for purchase then obviously that invalidates my argument.

    Would someone kindly be able to direct me to where I can purchase the game online?

    Thanks in advance.

  6. #6
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    After reviewing what you wrote I can clearly see what your point is. Excuse me if my comment made you feel uncomfortable in any way, I just misinterpret your issue, and I thought you were complaining for an entirely different thing. You have a point, but that's the situation. I believe THIS is what you're looking for.
    Once again, excuse me and I hope we happen to play together and enjoy the game sometime. Cheers.
    "Stand in the ashes of a trillion dead souls and ask the ghosts if honor matters. The silence is your answer."

  7. #7
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    I'm glad the misunderstanding was cleared up, Nydex. No hard feelings.

    Thanks as well for the link but I'm not terribly comfortable buying keys from sites like G2A with dodgy reputations. A friend of mine bought a key from G2A a while ago and then had the game removed later on because it was apparently purchased with a stolen credit card before being sold to him and G2A wasn't able to do anything about it.

    I would've thought the game would be available for purchase either through Steam, an online store set up by the one of the companies that made the game, eg. 2K or Trutlerock Studios, or on the game's official site - https://evolvegame.com/ - but I can't find anything. I'd be most grateful if someone could point me in the right direction, thanks.
    Again, am I just missing something glaringly obvious and it is actually available or is the only way to buy the game to go through questionable second-hand CD-Key sites like G2A?

    Also, can someone 100% confirm that if I were to buy the original game at this point and add it to my Steam account, I'd definitely receive the founder bonuses?

    If nothing else, I hope this thread at least points out to the developers the difficulty in obtaining the founders bonuses and so a clearer route can be implemented in the future so that other potential players aren't deterred as I nearly was.

  8. #8
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    HA Finally i can give some money to the developers for the awesome game. Thank you Nydex, i love you.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarra View Post
    Hello,

    if you just started playing since it went free you only initially have access to one specific character a week that happens to be in the free rotation and no perks. New players can accumulate ingame currency to buy characters and perks but the process is quite slow

    Perks in this game are pretty obviously a big deal at this point... A situation where some people have perks and others don't is a pretty big disparity.
    Personally, i have never liked the use of perks in any game since it adds more complexity to the gameplay but also creates the issue you have addressed: in the end will be unfair and harder to win against someone that has more/better perks than you

    I think this could be solved by removing perks from hunt game, where people just want to play and have fun, but also feel both sides have same chances to win. In this case, win would be only based on your own skill

    Ranked mode could still have perks, where people want to play seriously, will also chose perks wisely and will ensure to have the right ones before engaging

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarra View Post
    I'm glad the misunderstanding was cleared up, Nydex. No hard feelings.

    Thanks as well for the link but I'm not terribly comfortable buying keys from sites like G2A with dodgy reputations. A friend of mine bought a key from G2A a while ago and then had the game removed later on because it was apparently purchased with a stolen credit card before being sold to him and G2A wasn't able to do anything about it.

    I would've thought the game would be available for purchase either through Steam, an online store set up by the one of the companies that made the game, eg. 2K or Trutlerock Studios, or on the game's official site - https://evolvegame.com/ - but I can't find anything. I'd be most grateful if someone could point me in the right direction, thanks.
    Again, am I just missing something glaringly obvious and it is actually available or is the only way to buy the game to go through questionable second-hand CD-Key sites like G2A?

    Also, can someone 100% confirm that if I were to buy the original game at this point and add it to my Steam account, I'd definitely receive the founder bonuses?

    If nothing else, I hope this thread at least points out to the developers the difficulty in obtaining the founders bonuses and so a clearer route can be implemented in the future so that other potential players aren't deterred as I nearly was.
    There's no official way to purchase the game at this point unless it comes from 2K partnered sites.

    I understand why you would be uncomfortable purchasing from G2A, or any other key selling website, unfortunately, those are the only ways you would obtain the key.

    Activating the game should give you Founder benefits too. There should be no problems with that, as long as the key works.
    I am a Community Moderator, not an official 2K Representative

  11. #11
    I know what your point is and I'm allways saying to friends that the game lacks some Purchase Options like:
    - Double XP gain
    - Double Key gain

    The real Point is games like "League of Legends" or "Heroes of the Storm" are as succesfull as they are only because its not possible to buy advantages with money. It's a psychological thing, people think if its possible to be the best player in the world without paying anything, they will pay some money.
    And with the option to unlock perks while leveling Characters is the best entry to buy some Boosters for XP. (i guess even me would by a booster ^^' aand im a ☺☺☺☺☺☺☺ grasping person )
    Finally that's the road Evolve should head for.

    Hope you understood my point ^^'

  12. #12
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    I agree with Arihuss that perks that need to be unlocked either over time or by paying are detrimental to a game. If everyone had access to the same perks it would be fine because then which perks you choose is a strategic choice to compliment your class and your playstyle. If it were up to me I would just have Evolve more or less how it is but either minus the perks altogether or have the perks freely open to everyone.

    I also agree with you Sarodar, that was my original point at the start of this thread: that if there are going to be game changing advantages, they simply must be open to everybody in my opinion. At the time I was unaware that someone could purchase the original Evolve at this point and gain the Founder bonuses. I have since sucked it up and purchased an Evolve key from G2A and I can confirm that it does add +30,000 Silver Keys to your existing balance and unlock almost all of the characters. Contrary to Nydex's remarks, in my opinion this is a must for anyone wanting to take the game seriously.

    A lot of this discussion is layered on top of a deeper discussion about the best revenue model for a game. Obviously games should make their makers money or there would be no incentive to create them, but there are vastly different ways of achieving this. There are a lot of options and obviously some are objectively more successful than others. The main models I've observed are:
    - Pay an amount upfront and just own the game (eg. Starcraft, Warcraft 3, etc.)
    - Free to play but financed by micro transactions that affect gameplay (typically called 'pay to win' and include a lot of multiplayer mobile phone games)
    - Free to play but financed by micro transactions that are purely cosmetic (eg. Dota2, Path of Exile, etc.)
    - Pay to play model (eg. World of Warcraft)
    - Some combination of the aforementioned (eg. CS:GO costing a small amount initially and then financed with micro-transactions)

    This is just a personal value judgment on my part, but I feel that the best gaming model I've seen would be that of Dota2. I don't play Dota at all myself, but it's my understanding that anyone can download the game for free, log on and have access to everything ingame that affects gameplay that someone with 5,000+ hours under their belt would have. The way the developers make money from Dota2 is by people buying skins ingame (a cosmetic option that changes the appearance of your character, spell effects and items). I don't really understand why more games aren't like this to be honest. If I was to wager a guess I'd say that it's risky if the developers aren't confident in the popularity of their game, but at the same time I think developers grossly underestimate the amount of money people are willing to spend to customize the appearance of a game they enjoy.

    My suggestion for Evolve would be to keep it free to play as it is but either remove the perks or open up the perks to everyone and open up all characters to everyone. Then make Silver Keys usable only on hunter/monster skins, visual effects for abilities, avatar cosmetics, perhaps some victory pose screen like in Overwatch, etc.

    Of course, this is just my opinion. I know some people (such as Nydex earlier) will disagree with me, essentially saying that one player having 15% move speed and the other not isn't a big deal to him. Perhaps it's because I come from a pretty competitive background but this makes no sense to me. My view of how multiplayer games should be is that they're as accessible as possible and as fair as possible at all levels of play. The person or team that win each match should be the better player or better team and amount of perks/characters unlocked shouldn't factor into it whatsoever.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Jarra View Post
    I agree with Arihuss that perks that need to be unlocked either over time or by paying are detrimental to a game. If everyone had access to the same perks it would be fine because then which perks you choose is a strategic choice to compliment your class and your playstyle. If it were up to me I would just have Evolve more or less how it is but either minus the perks altogether or have the perks freely open to everyone.

    I also agree with you Sarodar, that was my original point at the start of this thread: that if there are going to be game changing advantages, they simply must be open to everybody in my opinion. At the time I was unaware that someone could purchase the original Evolve at this point and gain the Founder bonuses. I have since sucked it up and purchased an Evolve key from G2A and I can confirm that it does add +30,000 Silver Keys to your existing balance and unlock almost all of the characters. Contrary to Nydex's remarks, in my opinion this is a must for anyone wanting to take the game seriously.

    A lot of this discussion is layered on top of a deeper discussion about the best revenue model for a game. Obviously games should make their makers money or there would be no incentive to create them, but there are vastly different ways of achieving this. There are a lot of options and obviously some are objectively more successful than others. The main models I've observed are:
    - Pay an amount upfront and just own the game (eg. Starcraft, Warcraft 3, etc.)
    - Free to play but financed by micro transactions that affect gameplay (typically called 'pay to win' and include a lot of multiplayer mobile phone games)
    - Free to play but financed by micro transactions that are purely cosmetic (eg. Dota2, Path of Exile, etc.)
    - Pay to play model (eg. World of Warcraft)
    - Some combination of the aforementioned (eg. CS:GO costing a small amount initially and then financed with micro-transactions)

    This is just a personal value judgment on my part, but I feel that the best gaming model I've seen would be that of Dota2. I don't play Dota at all myself, but it's my understanding that anyone can download the game for free, log on and have access to everything ingame that affects gameplay that someone with 5,000+ hours under their belt would have. The way the developers make money from Dota2 is by people buying skins ingame (a cosmetic option that changes the appearance of your character, spell effects and items). I don't really understand why more games aren't like this to be honest. If I was to wager a guess I'd say that it's risky if the developers aren't confident in the popularity of their game, but at the same time I think developers grossly underestimate the amount of money people are willing to spend to customize the appearance of a game they enjoy.

    My suggestion for Evolve would be to keep it free to play as it is but either remove the perks or open up the perks to everyone and open up all characters to everyone. Then make Silver Keys usable only on hunter/monster skins, visual effects for abilities, avatar cosmetics, perhaps some victory pose screen like in Overwatch, etc.

    Of course, this is just my opinion. I know some people (such as Nydex earlier) will disagree with me, essentially saying that one player having 15% move speed and the other not isn't a big deal to him. Perhaps it's because I come from a pretty competitive background but this makes no sense to me. My view of how multiplayer games should be is that they're as accessible as possible and as fair as possible at all levels of play. The person or team that win each match should be the better player or better team and amount of perks/characters unlocked shouldn't factor into it whatsoever.
    Totaly agree!

    And 15% is a **** big deal

    Also its not necessary to make all Characters free to Play. League of Legends and Heroes of the Storm have also "Free-to-Play-Rotations" and to mention that LoL is propably the most played game existing. So it's easy to say: Make Everything free to players excepted Characters and Skins. Let us buy Characters with Keys and Skins only purchasable by Money.
    Im pretty sure this will work.
    But its easy for me to say. Its not my Game or money. Theres nothing at stake for me ^^'

  14. #14
    I think i have like 5 hours into the game and it seems im really good with the monster role and i love monster role i only play it and if i get hunter role i just leave match and queue again until i get monster and im playing "challenging" monster and im doing really good at the moment


  15. #15
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    it's impossible. it will be something like csgo crash. one of us always will be better.

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