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Thread: im convinced...This game is for CASUAL fans not HARDCORE gamers...

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by casketmouth View Post
    These games,seem to be geared to people who used to be those kids that obnoxiously slammed toys together to make the fight impacts and made goofy sound effects to match. I need a game for us who cared about actually making fisys connect to faces and made, made characters take,realistic leaps,and understood physics and applied all that to our toy adventures...wheres our wresting game? Lol
    Maybe so...but I play all my matches realistically...

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderlips View Post
    I would tend to agree. Besides, there's plenty of evidence to support this statement, on this forum.
    Might be true as well...I just find the whole "hardcore" gamer title funny. There are too many interpretations and a lot seem funny.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by rocknblues81 View Post
    Bret Hart as one of the greatest? It seems like a lot of people hate him these days.
    Bret shoots through the hip and is a no nonsense, straight talking dude who calls things just as he sees them. Sensitive millennial men (read pussified men) can't seem to handle his straight forwardness.

    While you may or may not agree with his opinions, you have to respect him for having the cojones to say what's on his mind and for not being a corporate ass kisser.


    And wrestling wise there is absolutely no argument.

    Gene Okerlund dubbed Hart "the greatest ever''. Kurt Angle studied tapes of Hart in order to learn the art of pro wrestling. Kurt Angle and Austin also considers him to be the best in ring performer ever.

    WWE chairman Vince McMahon described Hart as having "unparalleled" technical wrestling and storytelling skills.

    The Undertaker named Hart as his toughest opponent, adding: "Some of my favorite matches are with him... I think my matches with Bret were some of the best.''

    Shawn Michaels conceded that Hart was an "unbelievable" performer (an opinion shared by WWE executive and former opponent Triple H[206]), calling him a "sheer joy" to work with and saying that the pair's match at WrestleMania XII was one of, if not his favorite WrestleMania bout.

    Curt Hennig stated: "Out of all the matches I had, probably the best match I ever had would be with Bret [at SummerSlam 1991]... I have a good thing with Bret forever".

    Roddy Piper described Hart as "one great man", and "one of the few guys who has a 'total package'".

    Asked about his favorite opponent, Ted DiBiase said: "In my own era, without a doubt, Bret Hart."

    He is also idolised by many recent and/or current stars such as CM Punk, Jericho, Sami Zayn, Lance Storm, Roman Reigns. Anyone hating Bret Hart is an idiot and knows nothing about wrestling.

  3. #83
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    I do believe that there's such a thing as a hard core wrestling games who wants a more sim game experience with depth and as realistic strategy one can have in a choreographed pre-planned sparring sequence. Some want a strategic match that tells a story with chain wrestling and selling. Some want there to be a more methodical pace for bigger wrestlers and less so for cruiserweights, but strategy and realistic physics. Some, just want to run around and have a 160 lb man rag doll a 500 lbs giant. Jumping 20 ft and standing up 2 seconds later. Some want to have fights where you slam buttons and hit a move and then another. Some want a combination of both. Some want different components of each of these.

    I'm not sure there's a vast majority who want the extremes of each, but there are some that lean more towards the sim side and more of the arcade side. The sim tends to lean more towards the hard-core wrestling fan and the arcade tends to lean more towards the casual fan. There's always exceptions of course and some people like a balance like I said. I think just being able to toggle more options and not even the need for sliders would satiate both, but 2K hasn't really given that many options to turn on and off and like THQ in the past has moved back to more of a hybrid, though there's definitely a stronger sim base than THQ ever had, imho. Some think it was 2K16 that started it, but to me 2K18 has made the largest leap back towards an arcade style with the fast speed and overselling animations, but very little selling after the move and very short recovery time on the mat/ground.

    We'll see what patches can do and of course the key decisions of following this path for 2K19 will give a much better view of just where they see this franchise going. If it does move closer to an arcade style wrestling game I have no interest in continuing with this series.
    I'm an MDickie Guy.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Jpopfan13 View Post
    Next year could be if Hogan returns and the mae young classic as well we could get something to please everyone

    Hogan Showcase with A Mae young DLC pack + Adam Cole We could get something for hardcore and casual fans ( mind you i could see the dlc prices skyrocket but thats a whole other topic )
    And the year after that they can put in Benoit and do a Benoit showcase. You Hogan marks are off your rocker if you think that Hogan will ever be the main focus of one of these games again.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by WeirdViper View Post
    Name a single guy in wrestling history that was THE guy on the level Cena has been on for the same amount of time he has

    But the main thing I wanna address is the whole "oh men don't like him" or the "only women and kids" like him argument that is used against guys like Cena and Reigns... there are 2 HUGE flaws in that as any sort of valid argument

    #1 they are over with adult men... just because not ALL adult men like him doesn't mean he isn't over with adult men... any time you see pictures from signings/appearances that Cena (or even Roman) do... the MAJORITY of fans that go to them are grown men.

    #2 lets pretend for a second that you were right... that Cena wasn't over with male fans... that not a single adult male wrestling fan liked Cena... that his entire fanbase was only women and kids... so what? At what point in the "internet fan" life did it somehow become a bad thing to be looked up to as a hero for kids, or to have women love you? And I know it hurts the Cena haters to hear this... but "grown men" 's opinion does not hold any more weight or importance than the women or kid fans

    and as far as Cena's ring work goes... I mean the guy has had enough great matches that anyone that tries to discredit his ring work is just choosing to deny it
    Hulk Hogan, but what puts Hogan over Cena was the fact that Hogan knew how to listen to the crowd, work the crowd and evolve for the crowds tastes. Cena just ignored the crowd and then tried to make that part of his gimmick "Nevermind the fact that they're sick of my tired schtick, I'm just gonna keep on being lax in my entertainment skills"

    Secondly your "Not every male" philosphical argument is a straw mans argument to get around the pure fact thay Cena failed to be the half of the Babyface combo "You got to be a dude that the chicks wanna be with and the guys wanna have a beer with) he failed at the second half of that, miserably. He failed soo badly that the WWE gave up on trying to get him over with the male audience and just changed their marketing strategy to try and spin it. "Bi-Partisan crowd", "Mixed reaction", "Most Controversial Superstar", "Any reaction is better than no reaction", all that nonsense to cover the fact that they(& Cena admittedly) knew that fans hated his stale character and they were unwilling to take the reigns off of him and allow him to evolve hus charisma under the circumstances. Cena will always have a asterisk besides his name when it comes to him being a top guy because of it. He wasnt the fan chose top guy, he was the corporate appointed top guy, and he could never evolve his entertainment level up to counteract that, Hogan did that when faced with the same challenge, Rock did that when faced with the same challenege(twice might I add), Michaels did that when faced with the same challenge, Bret did it, Cena didn't. His career was disenfected squeaky clean with no chances taken, no triumphs or failures, nothing of note to say except people hated his stale charisma and he ignored it(nevermind the fact that he's a entertainer and his job is to entertain so the whole notion is hypocritical at best) & had perfect attendance and some good charity work.

    And his ring work has been him carried, he's a average worker, nothing spectacular, not god awful. I put him a slight notch above Hogan or Nash in working terms. Not a ring general at all. Like I said he doesnt have any noteworthy matches where he wasnt in the ring with a future(or should be) Hall of Famer.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by casketmouth View Post

    U don't try to combine both because all u do is alienate the loyalists and obtain fans that are there for a season till the next fad comes.

    When asked greatest wrestlers of all time, most hardcore wrestling fans will say Bret, Shawn, The Rabid Wolverine, Flair etc...before the casual fan who immediately jumps to...Hogan, Machoman, The Rock, and Austin...

    I know many may disagree and find this condescending to those who love the series as is or are huge Michael bay fans, but hey...its just a perspective on personal experience throughout the years.

    This is the era where commentators in the games dont call moves, but storyline and gimmick tropes. 2K are making THAT game.

    Like the name plate with a year reference after it. What hardcore WWE or rather WRESTLING fan/gamer needs to see that? And if one is making the game, keep that actual in the entrances?!
    Yeah, I have to disagree on account that somethings that hardcore fans ask for are rather ridiculous at times. There are hardcore with in the hardcore fan base after all so the percentage is even smaller. Even loyalists burn out, I caved around SRV '11 didn't pick it back up till 2k16 was coming out.

    on another note, I have to jump to Hogan even though I'm a hardcore because if it wasn't for him and the likes of savage perhaps wrestling wouldn't be as grand. Also as an infant put in front of a tv all I really remember is Hogan and people like Savage. oh yeah and Sargent slaughter GIjoe always came after wrestling where I grew up. Who knows if anyone else would have picked up the steam he did with the audience. I mean people ( by that mainly harcor fans ) still to this day love Bray but booo Roman. I'm sorry to say while Roman might be boring as an entertainer he does wrestle pretty good from time to time. Bray on the other hand well, ever since his injury cannot for put a good wrestling match to save his life. Yet all the hardcore love the hell out of him because he has an appealing gimmick.

    Of course my favorite wrestler of all time has to be kurt angle.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by the best ever View Post
    Bret shoots through the hip and is a no nonsense, straight talking dude who calls things just as he sees them. Sensitive millennial men (read pussified men) can't seem to handle his straight forwardness.

    While you may or may not agree with his opinions, you have to respect him for having the cojones to say what's on his mind and for not being a corporate ass kisser.


    And wrestling wise there is absolutely no argument.

    Gene Okerlund dubbed Hart "the greatest ever''. Kurt Angle studied tapes of Hart in order to learn the art of pro wrestling. Kurt Angle and Austin also considers him to be the best in ring performer ever.

    WWE chairman Vince McMahon described Hart as having "unparalleled" technical wrestling and storytelling skills.

    The Undertaker named Hart as his toughest opponent, adding: "Some of my favorite matches are with him... I think my matches with Bret were some of the best.''

    Shawn Michaels conceded that Hart was an "unbelievable" performer (an opinion shared by WWE executive and former opponent Triple H[206]), calling him a "sheer joy" to work with and saying that the pair's match at WrestleMania XII was one of, if not his favorite WrestleMania bout.

    Curt Hennig stated: "Out of all the matches I had, probably the best match I ever had would be with Bret [at SummerSlam 1991]... I have a good thing with Bret forever".

    Roddy Piper described Hart as "one great man", and "one of the few guys who has a 'total package'".

    Asked about his favorite opponent, Ted DiBiase said: "In my own era, without a doubt, Bret Hart."

    He is also idolised by many recent and/or current stars such as CM Punk, Jericho, Sami Zayn, Lance Storm, Roman Reigns. Anyone hating Bret Hart is an idiot and knows nothing about wrestling.
    Bret was good in the ring but he spent too much of his career in the undercard with neidhart. As far as top 5 he's close to my top 5 in ring, definitely top 10. But there has been some new guys that have come along and knocked him out of the top 5 spot imo.

    Shawn
    Flair
    Jericho
    Savage
    Angle

    Then Bret

    If Bret didnt have that stroke and horrible wcw run he may be higher.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by the best ever View Post
    Bret shoots through the hip and is a no nonsense, straight talking dude who calls things just as he sees them. Sensitive millennial men (read pussified men) can't seem to handle his straight forwardness.

    While you may or may not agree with his opinions, you have to respect him for having the cojones to say what's on his mind and for not being a corporate ass kisser.


    And wrestling wise there is absolutely no argument.

    Gene Okerlund dubbed Hart "the greatest ever''. Kurt Angle studied tapes of Hart in order to learn the art of pro wrestling. Kurt Angle and Austin also considers him to be the best in ring performer ever.

    WWE chairman Vince McMahon described Hart as having "unparalleled" technical wrestling and storytelling skills.

    The Undertaker named Hart as his toughest opponent, adding: "Some of my favorite matches are with him... I think my matches with Bret were some of the best.''

    Shawn Michaels conceded that Hart was an "unbelievable" performer (an opinion shared by WWE executive and former opponent Triple H[206]), calling him a "sheer joy" to work with and saying that the pair's match at WrestleMania XII was one of, if not his favorite WrestleMania bout.

    Curt Hennig stated: "Out of all the matches I had, probably the best match I ever had would be with Bret [at SummerSlam 1991]... I have a good thing with Bret forever".

    Roddy Piper described Hart as "one great man", and "one of the few guys who has a 'total package'".

    Asked about his favorite opponent, Ted DiBiase said: "In my own era, without a doubt, Bret Hart."

    He is also idolised by many recent and/or current stars such as CM Punk, Jericho, Sami Zayn, Lance Storm, Roman Reigns. Anyone hating Bret Hart is an idiot and knows nothing about wrestling.
    yes, he is still the best there is, was, and ever will be...he really was a master in selling kayfabe as realistic more so than any wrestle thats ever lived. He NEVER over sold in goofy antics,even as a heel. He took and gave strikes like tgey actually landed and made everything seem natural. Never looked like he fed moves, always stayed down when a move was suppose to look like it actually did equivocal damage. Never over shot a sell like flipping like a cartoon etc. He was extremely grounded which I'm more a fan off. Realism in kayfabe. I thought i was gonna get that in 15 but didn't. If i could port WWE 13 to ps4 id be playing that a lot till now as i played it more than 14...i miss reversal to reversal gaming. I really miss methodical wrestling where selling was more important than cool moves.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarmark77 View Post
    I do believe that there's such a thing as a hard core wrestling games who wants a more sim game experience with depth and as realistic strategy one can have in a choreographed pre-planned sparring sequence. Some want a strategic match that tells a story with chain wrestling and selling. Some want there to be a more methodical pace for bigger wrestlers and less so for cruiserweights, but strategy and realistic physics. Some, just want to run around and have a 160 lb man rag doll a 500 lbs giant. Jumping 20 ft and standing up 2 seconds later. Some want to have fights where you slam buttons and hit a move and then another. Some want a combination of both. Some want different components of each of these.

    I'm not sure there's a vast majority who want the extremes of each, but there are some that lean more towards the sim side and more of the arcade side. The sim tends to lean more towards the hard-core wrestling fan and the arcade tends to lean more towards the casual fan. There's always exceptions of course and some people like a balance like I said. I think just being able to toggle more options and not even the need for sliders would satiate both, but 2K hasn't really given that many options to turn on and off and like THQ in the past has moved back to more of a hybrid, though there's definitely a stronger sim base than THQ ever had, imho. Some think it was 2K16 that started it, but to me 2K18 has made the largest leap back towards an arcade style with the fast speed and overselling animations, but very little selling after the move and very short recovery time on the mat/ground.

    We'll see what patches can do and of course the key decisions of following this path for 2K19 will give a much better view of just where they see this franchise going. If it does move closer to an arcade style wrestling game I have no interest in continuing with this series.
    i couldn't agree more. You must be my clone from another zone. Brilliant mind. Really nothing more to add but YES! YES! YES! YES!

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJam90 View Post
    Bret was good in the ring but he spent too much of his career in the undercard with neidhart. As far as top 5 he's close to my top 5 in ring, definitely top 10. But there has been some new guys that have come along and knocked him out of the top 5 spot imo.

    Shawn
    Flair
    Jericho
    Savage
    Angle

    Then Bret

    If Bret didnt have that stroke and horrible wcw run he may be higher.
    I can see you like great in ring performers but more on the over acting, over selling animated types. I prefer methodical and realistic. Everyone you mentioned oven has cartoony mannerism in the ring, Angle does it less. Shawn and Flair are over the top caricatured who don't sell realism at all. Shawn often over sells moves tho great at it, he is NOT better than Bret at selling the craft as authentic sport, which i prefer personally. Don't remind me its choreographed entertainment. Shawn is in my top 10, but as far as realism and ring psychology he is no Benoit or Bret or Angle.

    Only one rivaling Bret in your list as far as technical mat skill and authentic presentation of in ring realism is Angle, tho Angle could be goofy at times and act juvenile in some regard.

    Jerich is awful at strikes, his kicks,are,awful and look like play fighting. He is great in range of capability, but not as convincing as Bret in selling or mat technicality. He also is notorious for being stiff, botched occasionally and hascinjured some opponents...Bret never has.

    It's all opinion, but when Undertaker can say Bret is the best WRESTLING match he ever had as far as getting technical moves from Taker for the first time instead of plodding around, I'm gonna look to those regards. Bret was a BEAST in that ring through and through. U really felt his, exhaustion, pain, frustrations etc. It all felt legit...THAT is,why many call him the best. It did not feel like "grown men play fighting and not taking or too serious" when Bret was in the ring. His matches screamed..."believe me and everything i do in here"...not "did you like that move? Was that fun?, do you like my gimmick?"

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by KMA_Jackson View Post
    Which is why a game like Fire Pro Wrestling (as much as I love it) will never be a top seller. It's much more complicated and sim-oriented than the 2K series, but it's got a steep learning curve that casuals don't have the patience for.
    Sorry but I disagree. The reason Fire Pro doesn't sell as many units as WWE games is because of just that, it's not WWE. It doesn't matter how sim or arcade-oriented the gameplay is, if it doesn't have the WWE license, it's not going to sell as many copies. The graphics don't help either.

    Why do you think FIFA always out-sells PES, even though PES is pushed as having the better gameplay? Not as many people want to play as Man Red with Pogby, Lukaka, and Jimbob the 3rd over the real thing.
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  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrant185 View Post
    Sorry but I disagree. The reason Fire Pro doesn't sell as many units as WWE games is because of just that, it's not WWE. It doesn't matter how sim or arcade-oriented the gameplay is, if it doesn't have the WWE license, it's not going to sell as many copies.

    Why do you think FIFA always out-sells PES, even though PES is pushed as having the better gameplay? Not as many people want to play as Man Red with Pogby, Lukaka, and Jimbob the 3rd over the real thing.
    Certainly licensing is a huge deal. I never meant to infer it wasn't.

    I was just trying to point out WHY the games are the way they are. Make it easy for casuals to play as well as others. I completely agree that there should be some more in-depth sliders for those who want to amp up the simulation style, and am surprised we haven't gotten that yet. I don't think we will ever see a WWE game that is 100% sim-oriented though (unless WWE takes off in popularity behind a more realistic sport presentation - ala NJPW)

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by KMA_Jackson View Post
    Certainly licensing is a huge deal. I never meant to infer it wasn't.

    I was just trying to point out WHY the games are the way they are. Make it easy for casuals to play as well as others. I completely agree that there should be some more in-depth sliders for those who want to amp up the simulation style, and am surprised we haven't gotten that yet. I don't think we will ever see a WWE game that is 100% sim-oriented though (unless WWE takes off in popularity behind a more realistic sport presentation - ala NJPW)


    I think what they need to strive for is something that can be tweaked on personal preference to be 100% of both in regards to the gameplay. Like you said though I can't see it happening either, especially when they're still dishing out needless restrictions on our gaming experience.
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  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by John Christopher View Post
    Even loyalists burn out, I caved around SRV '11 didn't pick it back up till 2k16 was coming out.
    Haven't missed a WWF/E game since Warzone... unless you count Legends of Wrestlemania and All Stars... My loyalty is burning just fine.

    I guess you could amend that for games produced for the Gamecube and original Xbox consoles... as I didn't buy either of those systems.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrant185 View Post
    Sorry but I disagree. The reason Fire Pro doesn't sell as many units as WWE games is because of just that, it's not WWE. It doesn't matter how sim or arcade-oriented the gameplay is, if it doesn't have the WWE license, it's not going to sell as many copies. The graphics don't help either.
    You can say I'm superficial if you like... I didn't play a Fire Pro game 'til Fire Pro Returns. If the game had better graphics... I certainly would have been a bigger fan and would have taken the time to learn how to play it. The graphics are definitely the reason that I couldn't get into the game.
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  13. #93
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    "Hardcore" is still subjective....even die hard fans of wrestling will disagree on different things...
    I don't want things to get toooo simmed where you gotta sleep and eat to maintain energy and hit the gym.....between matches...
    or give a pre-planned match where you plan some and or every spot....
    I think game play is going in the right direction...and i consider myself a semi-die hard fan of wrestling and a semi-"hardcore" gamer

    Sometimes, games can get too overloaded with sim stuff...Where you are planning and maintaining things rather than playing a game, and that just gets boring to me.

    But that's just my opinion...

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimJam90 View Post
    Hulk Hogan, but what puts Hogan over Cena was the fact that Hogan knew how to listen to the crowd, work the crowd and evolve for the crowds tastes. Cena just ignored the crowd and then tried to make that part of his gimmick "Nevermind the fact that they're sick of my tired schtick, I'm just gonna keep on being lax in my entertainment skills"

    Secondly your "Not every male" philosphical argument is a straw mans argument to get around the pure fact thay Cena failed to be the half of the Babyface combo "You got to be a dude that the chicks wanna be with and the guys wanna have a beer with) he failed at the second half of that, miserably. He failed soo badly that the WWE gave up on trying to get him over with the male audience and just changed their marketing strategy to try and spin it. "Bi-Partisan crowd", "Mixed reaction", "Most Controversial Superstar", "Any reaction is better than no reaction", all that nonsense to cover the fact that they(& Cena admittedly) knew that fans hated his stale character and they were unwilling to take the reigns off of him and allow him to evolve hus charisma under the circumstances. Cena will always have a asterisk besides his name when it comes to him being a top guy because of it. He wasnt the fan chose top guy, he was the corporate appointed top guy, and he could never evolve his entertainment level up to counteract that, Hogan did that when faced with the same challenge, Rock did that when faced with the same challenege(twice might I add), Michaels did that when faced with the same challenge, Bret did it, Cena didn't. His career was disenfected squeaky clean with no chances taken, no triumphs or failures, nothing of note to say except people hated his stale charisma and he ignored it(nevermind the fact that he's a entertainer and his job is to entertain so the whole notion is hypocritical at best) & had perfect attendance and some good charity work.

    And his ring work has been him carried, he's a average worker, nothing spectacular, not god awful. I put him a slight notch above Hogan or Nash in working terms. Not a ring general at all. Like I said he doesnt have any noteworthy matches where he wasnt in the ring with a future(or should be) Hall of Famer.
    " He wasnt the fan chose top guy, he was the corporate appointed top guy"
    This is such revisionist history b.s it's not even funny. 04-early 05 cena was the most over in the guy at the time. Also, Financially cena was a much better top guy than 95 bret hart and 96 shawn michales.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderlips View Post
    Not really. The Avalanche AA usually isn't purposely set up by Cena. It's done as something that occurs "naturally" in the course of a match (when someone goes to the second or top rope to do a diving move) ...it never comes across as something Cena is "desperate" to do, and rather something he gets a chance to perform. I consider the AA and roll-over into another AA, the desperation AA.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lilhurk1985187 View Post
    Hulk Hogan.
    but Roman never goes on the top rope so it would be weird to see him go up and just look out of place and unnatural

    Hogans "Hulkamania" run started in about early 84 and lasted about 9 years

    Cena has been the guy for about 12

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by WeirdViper View Post
    but Roman never goes on the top rope so it would be weird to see him go up and just look out of place and unnatural
    Ummm... you do know that Cena did the super aa to Reigns, right? Reigns didn't 'climb' to the top rope... he missed a spear, landed on the apron and Cena pulled him to the top rope, from the outside. It wasn't out of desperation. Cena saw that he could set up the move, so he did. It happened... naturally. Reigns escaping five finishers... is clownish. It takes me out of the match and I just hear Vince telling Cena that he has to make Reigns look really strong. All of that wasn't needed. Kicking out of that one AA, was enough. None of the extra stuff made the match more interesting.
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  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by WeirdViper View Post
    but Roman never goes on the top rope so it would be weird to see him go up and just look out of place and unnatural

    Hogans "Hulkamania" run started in about early 84 and lasted about 9 years

    Cena has been the guy for about 12
    Actually it continued when he went to WCW until he turned heel in 96 (i think thats the year).Thats 13 years for Hogan to cenas 12.
    All you had to do was follow the train CJ--Big Smoke

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by KMA_Jackson View Post
    Certainly licensing is a huge deal. I never meant to infer it wasn't.

    I was just trying to point out WHY the games are the way they are. Make it easy for casuals to play as well as others. I completely agree that there should be some more in-depth sliders for those who want to amp up the simulation style, and am surprised we haven't gotten that yet. I don't think we will ever see a WWE game that is 100% sim-oriented though (unless WWE takes off in popularity behind a more realistic sport presentation - ala NJPW)
    i dream of the day yukes goes back home and has more freedom and can spend years on one game.

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderlips View Post
    Haven't missed a WWF/E game since Warzone... unless you count Legends of Wrestlemania and All Stars... My loyalty is burning just fine.

    I guess you could amend that for games produced for the Gamecube and original Xbox consoles... as I didn't buy either of those systems.



    You can say I'm superficial if you like... I didn't play a Fire Pro game 'til Fire Pro Returns. If the game had better graphics... I certainly would have been a bigger fan and would have taken the time to learn how to play it. The graphics are definitely the reason that I couldn't get into the game.
    Well that's just it, man. Graphics in 2017 are one of the biggest marketing tools for companies, so much so that they'll go as far as to amp them up for E3 demos. We then end up not getting those same visuals on release (Watch Dogs etc).

    You present them with 18-bit models and people won't give it a 2nd look unless it's a niche or nostalgia title.
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    The all time greats in wrestling will always vary every year. Everyone will have their favorites too. I am not only a hardcore fan I too am an indy wrestler. For someone who's family grew up in the same neighborhood as Randy Poffo and lived right down the road from the house knows what a legacy he left. As far as my favorite wrestler of all times you'd have to go back a little further than Hogan for mine was Bruiser Brody. One of the first true and real monsters inside the ring who didn't throw his punches and kicks but actually made sure you feel them. It was sad how his life ended.

    Flash forward to now, when you ask anyone, especially wrestlers a majority of them will say Hulk Hogan will go down in history as being the icon of professional wrestling. Whenever people think of professional wrestling a majority of them will think Hulk Hogan.

    Now an easy fact that is if you ask any wrestler now who is the most respected and considered a legend in professional wrestling, everyone, Hogan including will say Undertaker.

    These games are for everyone. The main roster has to appeal to more of what is on TV now than anything else first. How else can you market a game to your current fan base if all you put on the game is wrestlers that only a true hardcore fan will know? Then you will fill more of your roster with some greats from some of the best year's of wrestling and so far it is the Attitude era and Ruthless Aggression. Last you will finish out filling some true legends to appease to some people who like playing these games to see their favorites in the ring. The CAWs is where you or I can place people that we believe are hardcore wrestlers. The main basis of the game is to appeal to the casual gamer. You make more money selling copies to a casual gamer than you would a hardcore one in this matter. Remember that it was said a non-wrestling fan once picked up 2K16, a non-wrestling fan is a casual gamer. In the video gaming world if you appeal to a mass market of gamers you tend to make more money than appealing to just those who are die hard fans of a game or sport.

  21. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheImpCaiman View Post
    The all time greats in wrestling will always vary every year. Everyone will have their favorites too. I am not only a hardcore fan I too am an indy wrestler. For someone who's family grew up in the same neighborhood as Randy Poffo and lived right down the road from the house knows what a legacy he left. As far as my favorite wrestler of all times you'd have to go back a little further than Hogan for mine was Bruiser Brody. One of the first true and real monsters inside the ring who didn't throw his punches and kicks but actually made sure you feel them. It was sad how his life ended.

    Flash forward to now, when you ask anyone, especially wrestlers a majority of them will say Hulk Hogan will go down in history as being the icon of professional wrestling. Whenever people think of professional wrestling a majority of them will think Hulk Hogan.

    Now an easy fact that is if you ask any wrestler now who is the most respected and considered a legend in professional wrestling, everyone, Hogan including will say Undertaker.

    These games are for everyone. The main roster has to appeal to more of what is on TV now than anything else first. How else can you market a game to your current fan base if all you put on the game is wrestlers that only a true hardcore fan will know? Then you will fill more of your roster with some greats from some of the best year's of wrestling and so far it is the Attitude era and Ruthless Aggression. Last you will finish out filling some true legends to appease to some people who like playing these games to see their favorites in the ring. The CAWs is where you or I can place people that we believe are hardcore wrestlers. The main basis of the game is to appeal to the casual gamer. You make more money selling copies to a casual gamer than you would a hardcore one in this matter. Remember that it was said a non-wrestling fan once picked up 2K16, a non-wrestling fan is a casual gamer. In the video gaming world if you appeal to a mass market of gamers you tend to make more money than appealing to just those who are die hard fans of a game or sport.
    You could say the same about the current WWE product on TV, but they continue to only appeal to their niche audience. They're not trying to get the casuals back in, which is where the big money is.
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  22. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by donald22f View Post
    " He wasnt the fan chose top guy, he was the corporate appointed top guy"
    This is such revisionist history b.s it's not even funny. 04-early 05 cena was the most over in the guy at the time. Also, Financially cena was a much better top guy than 95 bret hart and 96 shawn michales.
    He was over in 04 & Half of 05, but once he jumped to Raw in 05 he dropped the charisma that got him over and it was downhill from there. From there it was nothing but backlash and the WWE ignoring it. From the Angle feud(in 05) to current. By the time 06's wrestlemania was there the fans were cheering Triple H(who was the most hated man in wrestling at that time) because they hated Cena. People were literally cheering and hoping for HHH to bury Cena. Thats how much he sucked.

  23. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by casketmouth View Post
    yes, he is still the best there is, was, and ever will be...he really was a master in selling kayfabe as realistic more so than any wrestle thats ever lived. He NEVER over sold in goofy antics,even as a heel. He took and gave strikes like tgey actually landed and made everything seem natural. Never looked like he fed moves, always stayed down when a move was suppose to look like it actually did equivocal damage. Never over shot a sell like flipping like a cartoon etc. He was extremely grounded which I'm more a fan off. Realism in kayfabe. I thought i was gonna get that in 15 but didn't. If i could port WWE 13 to ps4 id be playing that a lot till now as i played it more than 14...i miss reversal to reversal gaming. I really miss methodical wrestling where selling was more important than cool moves.
    i couldn't agree more. You must be my clone from another zone. Brilliant mind. Really nothing more to add but YES! YES! YES! YES!



    I can see you like great in ring performers but more on the over acting, over selling animated types. I prefer methodical and realistic. Everyone you mentioned oven has cartoony mannerism in the ring, Angle does it less. Shawn and Flair are over the top caricatured who don't sell realism at all. Shawn often over sells moves tho great at it, he is NOT better than Bret at selling the craft as authentic sport, which i prefer personally. Don't remind me its choreographed entertainment. Shawn is in my top 10, but as far as realism and ring psychology he is no Benoit or Bret or Angle.

    Only one rivaling Bret in your list as far as technical mat skill and authentic presentation of in ring realism is Angle, tho Angle could be goofy at times and act juvenile in some regard.

    Jerich is awful at strikes, his kicks,are,awful and look like play fighting. He is great in range of capability, but not as convincing as Bret in selling or mat technicality. He also is notorious for being stiff, botched occasionally and hascinjured some opponents...Bret never has.

    It's all opinion, but when Undertaker can say Bret is the best WRESTLING match he ever had as far as getting technical moves from Taker for the first time instead of plodding around, I'm gonna look to those regards. Bret was a BEAST in that ring through and through. U really felt his, exhaustion, pain, frustrations etc. It all felt legit...THAT is,why many call him the best. It did not feel like "grown men play fighting and not taking or too serious" when Bret was in the ring. His matches screamed..."believe me and everything i do in here"...not "did you like that move? Was that fun?, do you like my gimmick?"
    Every wrestler I mentioned had more iconic matches, more longevity being the best, more charisma, etc.

    Your best compliment of Bret is your preference of his moveset. But he was the man who the phrase "5 moves of Doom" came from. Everyone else had more top level matches for a longer period of time. Bret was good, but he was surpassed. Surpassed by Shawn, Surpassed by Jericho, Surpassed by Angle, and he never touched Flair's run and never was as iconic as Savage. He's not Garbage but he's far from TBE.

  24. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimJam90 View Post
    Every wrestler I mentioned had more iconic matches, more longevity being the best, more charisma, etc.

    Your best compliment of Bret is your preference of his moveset. But he was the man who the phrase "5 moves of Doom" came from. Everyone else had more top level matches for a longer period of time. Bret was good, but he was surpassed. Surpassed by Shawn, Surpassed by Jericho, Surpassed by Angle, and he never touched Flair's run and never was as iconic as Savage. He's not Garbage but he's far from TBE.
    And he couldn't cut a high quality promo to save his life. He wasn't terrible by any means but none of his promos were truly memorable.

  25. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimJam90 View Post
    Every wrestler I mentioned had more iconic matches, more longevity being the best, more charisma, etc.

    Your best compliment of Bret is your preference of his moveset. But he was the man who the phrase "5 moves of Doom" came from. Everyone else had more top level matches for a longer period of time. Bret was good, but he was surpassed. Surpassed by Shawn, Surpassed by Jericho, Surpassed by Angle, and he never touched Flair's run and never was as iconic as Savage. He's not Garbage but he's far from TBE.
    "5 moves of doom" doesn't mean anything at all considering how many moves you do doesn't matter one bit. That's a term coined by "the smart marks", who have been conditioned to think otherwise and clearly don't understand good storytelling. The fact of the matter is that even with "5 moves of doom", Bret Hart gave countless people the absolute best match of their careers. He was flawless in everything he did in the ring, he made all "5" of those moves look crisp and painful, and he always sold to perfection. He was an amazing storyteller who fully backed up his "Excellence of Execution" moniker.

    Bret was smarter than just about anybody when it came to painting a picture in the ring, and had such an advanced perception of what the crowd would respond to or what would get the opponent over. He knew how to make his opponents look amazing without spamming finishing moves, high spots, or false finishes. His ring psychology, even to this day is unmatched.

    If you want to talk about being able to work with anyone, who else was able to get memorable classics out of the bigger guys who worked a different style? There's one other person in that same bracket and that's Shawn Michaels. That's no disrespect to the likes of Jericho and Angle who I was a big fan of, but Bret Hart (along with HBK) was in a league of his own for innovation, storytelling and overall match quality in the ring.

    The biggest compliment I could give Bret Hart is that he's the in-ring equivalent to Pat Patterson the match agent. He saw the finer aspects that nobody else could, or can today.
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  26. #106
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    Lol whatever

  27. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrant185 View Post
    There's one other person in that same bracket and that's Shawn Michaels.
    ...Macho Man...
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  28. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderlips View Post
    ...Macho Man...
    What giants did he get classic matches out of as consistently as Bret and Shawn? I'm not taking anything away from the likes of him, but it's rather a testament to how good Bret and Shawn actually were.
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  29. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrant185 View Post
    What giants did he get classic matches out of as consistently as Bret and Shawn?
    What giants did Bret and Shawn have to carry... and have classic matches with... is the better question. Undertaker doesn't count. He was a quality performer. Diesel and Bret's matches... were not good. nor were they classics. Same goes for Shawn and Diesel, or Sid, or Vader... Macho Man carried people like Hogan, Warrior, Andre, One Man Gang...
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  30. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrant185 View Post
    "5 moves of doom" doesn't mean anything at all considering how many moves you do doesn't matter one bit. That's a term coined by "the smart marks", who have been conditioned to think otherwise and clearly don't understand good storytelling. The fact of the matter is that even with "5 moves of doom", Bret Hart gave countless people the absolute best match of their careers. He was flawless in everything he did in the ring, he made all "5" of those moves look crisp and painful, and he always sold to perfection. He was an amazing storyteller who fully backed up his "Excellence of Execution" moniker.

    Bret was smarter than just about anybody when it came to painting a picture in the ring, and had such an advanced perception of what the crowd would respond to or what would get the opponent over. He knew how to make his opponents look amazing without spamming finishing moves, high spots, or false finishes. His ring psychology, even to this day is unmatched.

    If you want to talk about being able to work with anyone, who else was able to get memorable classics out of the bigger guys who worked a different style? There's one other person in that same bracket and that's Shawn Michaels. That's no disrespect to the likes of Jericho and Angle who I was a big fan of, but Bret Hart (along with HBK) was in a league of his own for innovation, storytelling and overall match quality in the ring.

    The biggest compliment I could give Bret Hart is that he's the in-ring equivalent to Pat Patterson the match agent. He saw the finer aspects that nobody else could, or can today.
    Last time I checked Flair had a great match with Vader, Jericho & Angle didn't have as many immobile lumbering men as Bret(although Angle brought a better match outta Taker than Bret ever did, and Shawn dwarfed the both of em, and Flair's match with Taker was better than Bret's & that was a spot fest).

    Bret was good but you're over blowing him. He didnt carry every big man to great matches just that one with Bam Bam & Nash. Shawn got good matches outta Nash, Sid, Yoko, he got a watchable match outta the Great Khali(& thats a miracle) his matches with Undertaker in 97 blows most of Bret's work out of the water & his matches with Undertaker at WM 25 & 26 destroy all of Bret's matches. Like I said Bret was decent but not TBE.

  31. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimJam90 View Post
    Last time I checked Flair had a great match with Vader, Jericho & Angle didn't have as many immobile lumbering men as Bret(although Angle brought a better match outta Taker than Bret ever did, and Shawn dwarfed the both of em, and Flair's match with Taker was better than Bret's & that was a spot fest).

    Bret was good but you're over blowing him. He didnt carry every big man to great matches just that one with Bam Bam & Nash. Shawn got good matches outta Nash, Sid, Yoko, he got a watchable match outta the Great Khali(& thats a miracle) his matches with Undertaker in 97 blows most of Bret's work out of the water & his matches with Undertaker at WM 25 & 26 destroy all of Bret's matches. Like I said Bret was decent but not TBE.
    50 year old Flair/Taker better than Bret/Taker? I'm not having that LOL. Sorry bro but that's wrong. Bret/Taker at SummerSlam 1997 was a classic, and their match at Royal Rumble 1996 was pretty damn good for what it was as well. Bret also had the matches with Yokozuna, Bam Bam, Nash, and a really underrated match with Glenn Jacobs at SummerSlam 1995 which I would class as one of, if not the best match of Kane's career in terms of how technically sound it was. Kane's WM14 had the spectacle but it was a drag on the whole.

    Jericho and Angle had plenty of giants to work with. Big Show, Undertaker, Kane, and a plethora of generic random guys who were pushed in the mid 00's.

    Undertaker himself has put Bret Hart over as his favourite person to work with in the ring because of his psychology and ability to bring out the best work in his opponents. I honestly don't know why you're including Jericho in this conversation to be honest, but considering you're placing a 50 year old Flair's work above Bret's I'm really not sure what to do with that lol.
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  32. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrant185 View Post
    50 year old Flair/Taker better than Bret/Taker? I'm not having that LOL. Sorry bro but that's wrong. Bret/Taker at SummerSlam 1997 was a classic, and their match at Royal Rumble 1996 was pretty damn good for what it was as well. Bret also had the matches with Yokozuna, Bam Bam, Nash, and a really underrated match with Glenn Jacobs at SummerSlam 1995 which I would class as one of, if not the best match of Kane's career in terms of how technically sound it was. Kane's WM14 had the spectacle but it was a drag on the whole.
    Yeah, but... you can't even put Bam Bam and Yoko on this list... those guys were both really good performers. Savage also had a very good match with Yokozuna.
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  33. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderlips View Post
    Yeah, but... you can't even put Bam Bam and Yoko on this list... those guys were both really good performers. Savage also had a very good match with Yokozuna.
    Of course you can. They still have to mesh together and put on a good match. Jericho and Undertaker were great workers but they never put on classics like HBK/Bret and Undertaker did.

    That sounds like a classic case of moving the goal posts to fit a certain narrative...
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  34. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrant185 View Post
    Of course you can. They still have to mesh together and put on a good match. Jericho and Undertaker were great workers but they never put on classics like HBK/Bret and Undertaker did.

    That sounds like a classic case of moving the goal posts to fit a certain narrative...
    Not really... and Jericho vs Undertaker isn't a great comparison either. They really didn't work together... I think I recall maybe one match they were in. I'm also not dogging Bret. Bret was great in the ring. People point out the 5 moves of doom, but, that wasn't a staple of Bret's matches until he became WWF's top guy. WWF always felt that they needed top stars with predictable move sets for some reason. Bret is one of the best of all time as far as realistic looking offense and awesome selling is concerned.
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  35. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderlips View Post
    Not really... and Jericho vs Undertaker isn't a great comparison either. They really didn't work together... I think I recall maybe one match they were in. I'm also not dogging Bret. Bret was great in the ring. People point out the 5 moves of doom, but, that wasn't a staple of Bret's matches until he became WWF's top guy. WWF always felt that they needed top stars with predictable move sets for some reason. Bret is one of the best of all time as far realistic looking offense and awesome selling is concerned.
    I think it's a case of Vince finding storytelling to be a more important aspect than the athletic ability and the moves themselves. The northern territories always had a different mentality to the south.

    The south you could consider lot more similar to the Japanese style which had more emphasis on the athleticism and the holds, whereas New York always pushed the characters and the spectacle of the game. A lot of guys from the southern and Canadian territories were the ones to start touring Japan. I remember Jericho saying when he got to WWF it took him a lot of time to get used to the style where he had to work the cameras and focus on his timing and showmanship. Ultimately it has proved the most successful style to run with considering everywhere else is out of business in the states.

    If you think about it, it's less of a toll on your body if you're taking less risks every night. Dynamite Kid worked himself into a wheel chair, whereas Hogan made money for 3 decades.
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  36. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by casketmouth View Post
    Yup, so playing exhibition I see they have murdered simulation realism. It's completely dead. This game is too fast, transitions from selling animations to upright walking is noticeably rapid and unnatural looking. Only real improvement is graphics and even then I'm not mind blown...game plays too damn fast smh
    I for one am stunned that you hate 2k18
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  37. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrant185 View Post
    50 year old Flair/Taker better than Bret/Taker? I'm not having that LOL. Sorry bro but that's wrong. Bret/Taker at SummerSlam 1997 was a classic, and their match at Royal Rumble 1996 was pretty damn good for what it was as well. Bret also had the matches with Yokozuna, Bam Bam, Nash, and a really underrated match with Glenn Jacobs at SummerSlam 1995 which I would class as one of, if not the best match of Kane's career in terms of how technically sound it was. Kane's WM14 had the spectacle but it was a drag on the whole.

    Jericho and Angle had plenty of giants to work with. Big Show, Undertaker, Kane, and a plethora of generic random guys who were pushed in the mid 00's.

    Undertaker himself has put Bret Hart over as his favourite person to work with in the ring because of his psychology and ability to bring out the best work in his opponents. I honestly don't know why you're including Jericho in this conversation to be honest, but considering you're placing a 50 year old Flair's work above Bret's I'm really not sure what to do with that lol.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderlips View Post
    Yeah, but... you can't even put Bam Bam and Yoko on this list... those guys were both really good performers. Savage also had a very good match with Yokozuna.
    You shouldn't put Kane on that list either. Kane was a better performer than Bam Bam Bigelow and Yokozuna.

  38. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by ink625 View Post
    You shouldn't put Kane on that list either. Kane was a better performer than Bam Bam Bigelow and Yokozuna.
    What does that have to do with anything? We can list Yokozuna as somebody Macho had a good match with but we can't list him for Bret because he was a good worker?
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  39. #119
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    As this hasn't really been about the game for a while, I'll close it up. If anyone wants to continue it in the Wrestling Discussion forum, feel free.
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