A message about PC specs, Games for Windows Live, and SecuROM from Elizabeth

[2K Elizabeth]

Hey guys,

As many of you are aware, yesterday Steam's pre-purchase program began and the specs for BioShock 2 were posted along with that announcement.

These specs were taken from the retail packaging of BioShock 2. And since bullet points on the back of the box don't always explain the full story, here is a little more detail about what that means.

BioShock 2 is using a standard Games for Windows Live activation system, much like other games you have played in the past. That doesn't mean you always have to be online to play or save the game - you can create an offline profile for the Single Player portion of the game (you just won't earn achievements and you can't play Multiplayer, of course.)

We are using SecuROM only as a disc check method for the retail copy of BioShock 2. That is it's only use.

I am now checking the final plans for BioShock 2's specifications for Steam - and I'll get you a more complete answer by the end of the week. I have also been compiling a feature that will help answer a host of questions about BioShock 2 on the PC, including a podcast and screenshots of the PC version, and that should be out within a few days as well.

I'm sorry for the confusion, and I hope to clear it up entirely for you soon.

-Elizabeth

[Oppopji]

So we don't need to be online either to install or play the game in single player mode using a retail copy of the game?

[Invader]

Glad I'm getting it on XB360, because things seem a little messy with the PC version. Man, 13 GB overall space needed. That's a sign of a well-made, all-out game.

[2K Elizabeth]

So we don't need to be online either to install or play the game in single player mode using a retail copy of the game?

There is a one-time online activation for the game, but if you want to play single player without being online, you can create an offline profile and never go online again.

I have the specs up on the Cult now for you guys: http://www.2kgames.com/cultofrapture...specifications

[Gregory]

I'm glad I own a 360.

[Rapture_Reminder]

This is wonderful news. Thanks for clearing it up.

[dchalfont]

There is a one-time online activation for the game, but if you want to play single player without being online, you can create an offline profile and never go online again.

I have the specs up on the Cult now for you guys: http://www.2kgames.com/cultofrapture...specifications

Is there limitied activations?, why could it not use steam for activation?

[Jacks]

I'm glad I own a 360.

Same here. Seems like a lot of PC Gamers are freaking not only because of SecuROM, DRM, ect. They are freaking cause of Games for Windows live.
Like I said in one thread.

"Games for Windows in Rapture! The PC Council is in an up-roar!"

If you get that, you get a cookie.

[Grimhound]

Thank you so much for clarifying this Liz. I really appreciate it, and I'm sure everyone else does as well. I heard what was originally stated and went a little nuts thinking there was nothing learned from the previous stint with this, and I'm now going back and linking your statement on the matter.

[dchalfont]

You say there is a one time activation, the same is true for limited install DRM though. So what are the specifics, is it a 5 install limit and you need to activate it each time ( only once ) as you say, yet you wrote that it was only a disk check, those 2 things conflict

online activation =/= only a disk check.

It sounds to me like it's exactly as I feared yet you are just rying to word it differently, it STill uses GFWL ( which is pain in the ass, offline or not ), and it still has full DRM with online activation and possibly an install limit????, why are people suddenly rejoicing?
'

[Oppopji]

Online activation to play single player = lost sale from me

It is completely unrealistic to expect that the activation servers will always be available/accessible so there's a very good chance that at some point in the future the game will become unplayable on new installs due to activation problems.

You say there is a one time activation, the same is true for limited install DRM though. So what are the specifics, is it a 5 install limit and you need to activate it each time ( only once ) as you say, yet you wrote that it was only a disk check, those 2 things conflict

online activation =/= only a disk check.

Elizabeth means that the online activation will be performed by GFWL instead of SecuROM I think

[Grimhound]

Online activation to play single player = lost sale from me

It is completely unrealistic to expect that the activation servers will always be available/accessible so there's a very good chance that at some point in the future the game will become unplayable on new installs due to activation problems.



Elizabeth means that the online activation will be performed by GFWL instead of SecuROM I think

Yeah. I would really like to be able to play my games in Steam's offline mode should something occur where I do not have internet access.

[dchalfont]

Online activation to play single player = lost sale from me

It is completely unrealistic to expect that the activation servers will always be available/accessible so there's a very good chance that at some point in the future the game will become unplayable on new installs due to activation problems.



Elizabeth means that the online activation will be performed by GFWL instead of SecuROM I think

That's possibly even worse, I don't want microsoft having access to any information about me or my PC via a rootkit virus.

I actually got my hopes up when she wrote that it was a disk check, it seems it was just cleverly deceptive.

[Gregory]

Same here. Seems like a lot of PC Gamers are freaking not only because of SecuROM, DRM, ect. They are freaking cause of Games for Windows live.
Like I said in one thread.

"Games for Windows in Rapture! The PC Council is in an up-roar!"

If you get that, you get a cookie.

Hahaha yes, agreed.

[2K Elizabeth]

Is there limitied activations?, why could it not use steam for activation?

Games for Windows Live has an activation key and some restrictions for your online profile, which is standard. I'm sure I don't know all the reasons we went with GFWL, but it works very well with our Multiplayer component.

Steam beat me to the punch a couple days early with their program. I have a full feature with Q&A, podcast, screenshots that will explain all the ins and outs of the PC version. It's just not completely polished yet, but I'll have it to you soon.

[Oppopji]

That's possibly even worse, I don't want microsoft having access to any information about me or my PC via a rootkit virus.

I actually got my hopes up when she wrote that it was a disk check, it seems it was just cleverly deceptive.

Same here Microsoft already even has a history for shutting down DRM servers & screwing the end users (when they shut down "MSN Music" or whatever it was called).

[BrettM]

That announcement doesn't say that SecuROM won't be *installed* if you buy over Steam, just that it won't have any function. Not acceptable.

I don't know what it means that BS2 contains GFWL just like other games I've played, because there is no game on my system with GFWL. I have absolutely no interest in multiplayer, and I do not understand why GFWL is required for single-player achievements, though I can live without them. But the real point is again that this thing will be installed even if you aren't interested in achievements and never play multiplayer, so exactly why would I be relieved by this announcement? Again, not acceptable.

I saw the announcement that BS2 was available for pre-order over Steam while I was at work, and planned to place an order as soon as I got home. Then I saw this thread. Another sale lost.

Darn. I was really, really looking forward to this game.

[2K Elizabeth]

You say there is a one time activation, the same is true for limited install DRM though. So what are the specifics, is it a 5 install limit and you need to activate it each time ( only once ) as you say, yet you wrote that it was only a disk check, those 2 things conflict

online activation =/= only a disk check.

It sounds to me like it's exactly as I feared yet you are just rying to word it differently, it STill uses GFWL ( which is pain in the ass, offline or not ), and it still has full DRM with online activation and possibly an install limit????, why are people suddenly rejoicing?
'

Games for Windows Live is what controls the activation and the online and offline profiles. Not SecuROM. That is only a disc check, and nothing more.

[minerva79]

*fingers-crossed for no SecuROM on Steam version of BS2*

Anyway, will 2K be doing anything about the games on Steam that were removed from sales for most part of the world? I'm still waiting to get a copy of Civ.

[BeaconClose]

If this is a mistake then fine I could live with GFWL as long as it isn't too much of an issue. However securom I won't stand for.

I know its probably a bit early to ask (or maybe not since DLC is already in the pipeline) will the DLC have securom on like borderlands, that royally annoyed me.

[Oppopji]

Games for Windows Live has an activation key and some restrictions for your online profile, which is standard. I'm sure I don't know all the reasons we went with GFWL, but it works very well with our Multiplayer component.

Are you absolutely sure that BS2's implementation of GFWL requires online activation just to play single player using an offline profile? I just want to be 100% certain as other games that use GFWL (e.g. Batman: Arkham Asylum) allow you to install & create an offline GFWL profile without having to be online at all.

[dchalfont]

Games for Windows Live has an activation key and some restrictions for your online profile, which is standard. I'm sure I don't know all the reasons we went with GFWL, but it works very well with our Multiplayer component.

Steam beat me to the punch a couple days early with their program. I have a full feature with Q&A, podcast, screenshots that will explain all the ins and outs of the PC version. It's just not completely polished yet, but I'll have it to you soon.

I'm still unsure how GFWL activation works as I have never used it, but by default any kind of DRM is restrictive, and Bioshock 2 being a primarily single player game, it does not seem fair that you would use GFWL for multiplayer reasons...

I hope it turns out better than what you are describing, and that you need only use an online profile/activate the game online before using the online features of the game, which I could gladly live without for the sake of the freedom to install without the need for an internet connection.

Other games like fallout 3 require GFWL for the DLC, and for achievements etc, yet the main portion of the game does not require it at all, I don't see why this game could not have done the same, as you know Fallout 3 sold extremely well, even with a disk check, the same with Dragon Age: Origins.

I do not blame you, but there is no other place to voice our concerns, and as much as I was looking forward to this ( and will still be getting it due to a non refundable pre-order ) I wish I had not pre-ordered it at all, because if I had known about this before, I would not have bought it at all.

[dchalfont]

Are you absolutely sure that BS2's implementation of GFWL requires online activation just to play single player using an offline profile? I just want to be 100% certain as other games that use GFWL (e.g. Batman: Arkham Asylum) allow you to install & create an offline GFWL profile without having to be online at all.

I am hoping the same and that it is a misunderstanding, because a disk check and optional GFWL ( or mandatory FOR ONLINE ONLY ), would be a dream come true, and I give my sincerest apologies to 2K for doubting them..but after BS1...

[Sinclair Saucer]

I am so glad 360 is so easy...

[Jacks]

I am so glad 360 is so easy...

Ah yes Xbox you just need a ethernet cord and a Membership.


Off-Topic: Saucer, what is your Gamertag? Add me, VUA SanderCohen

[2K Elizabeth]

Are you absolutely sure that BS2's implementation of GFWL requires online activation just to play single player using an offline profile? I just want to be 100% certain as other games that use GFWL (e.g. Batman: Arkham Asylum) allow you to install & create an offline GFWL profile without having to be online at all.

Yes. I talk to the GFWL guys and that's the case. If you have *no* profile you won't be able to save, but if you have an offline profile you can play and save. You won't get achievements and the like - but without online access, that doesn't matter as much.

[Codex]

Guys, if you're not talking about the DRM + GWFL issue you don't need to comment here. We don't need to add extra posts about our opinions on systems to what will be a very busy thread.

[Jacks]

Guys, if you're not talking about the DRM + GWFL issue you don't need to comment here. We don't need to add extra posts about our opinions on systems to what will be a very busy thread.

Yeah, sorry about that Codex, I'll move to PM.

Hopefully this will all get sorted out, and PC Gamers can end up happy.

[2K Elizabeth]

I'm still unsure how GFWL activation works as I have never used it, but by default any kind of DRM is restrictive, and Bioshock 2 being a primarily single player game, it does not seem fair that you would use GFWL for multiplayer reasons...

I hope it turns out better than what you are describing, and that you need only use an online profile/activate the game online before using the online features of the game, which I could gladly live without for the sake of the freedom to install without the need for an internet connection.

Other games like fallout 3 require GFWL for the DLC, and for achievements etc, yet the main portion of the game does not require it at all, I don't see why this game could not have done the same, as you know Fallout 3 sold extremely well, even with a disk check, the same with Dragon Age: Origins.

I do not blame you, but there is no other place to voice our concerns, and as much as I was looking forward to this ( and will still be getting it due to a non refundable pre-order ) I wish I had not pre-ordered it at all, because if I had known about this before, I would not have bought it at all.

I'm exactly the right place to voice your concerns, so don't worry about that.

And yes, you will have to go online at least once when you install the game, regardless of whether or not you ever play Multiplayer.

As an aside, the Single Player part of this game is huge, and awesome, but so is Multiplayer. I know it might not be everyone's thing, but a lot of love and work and thought went into that part of BioShock 2.

[dchalfont]

Yes. I talk to the GFWL guys and that's the case. If you have *no* profile you won't be able to save, but if you have an offline profile you can play and save. You won't get achievements and the like - but without online access, that doesn't matter as much.

Just to confirm, in order to word my appology, you only need to have an online profile ( and indeed log online at all ) solely for the multiplayer, and that the single player will require no online activation ( just an offline GFWL profile, which is no big deal ) and will simply use a disk check?

EDIT:

"And yes, you will have to go online at least once when you install the game, regardless of whether or not you ever play Multiplayer.
"

But you just said that you spoke to the GFWL people and that it would be as Oppopji said. ( see the bold text ), but if you need to activate online, then it is not as he said :S

[Oppopji]

And yes, you will have to go online at least once when you install the game, regardless of whether or not you ever play Multiplayer.

That's my problem with this - if I just want to play single player then there should be no need to have to activate/authenticate the game online IMO. Other GFWL games (like Arkham Asylum) only require online activation/authentication to use the online features - B:AA can be installed & played offline using an offline GFWL account without ever connecting the system to the 'net. As I said in another thread:

I still have almost every PC game I have ever bought - dating back well over a decade and a half. All of them are still playable now & will still be playable in future as long as I keep the disks/discs safe. Without resorting to cracks, too (although some require either old hardware or software like Dosbox to run now).

Will I be able to say the same thing in 10 years' time about games that require online activation? I very much doubt it.

This concern is even greater knowing that Microsoft even has a history of shutting down DRM servers like they did for their music service; what's there to say that they won't do the same with GFWL at some point due to the cost/universal hatred/etc.?

[sp1ke]

@2K Elizabeth

I just registered now to ask you this one question:

will there be any 'sort' of activation limits on the steam version?This is really bugging me and I hope its unlimited.

[2K Elizabeth]

Just to confirm, in order to word my appology, you only need to have an online profile ( and indeed log online at all ) solely for the multiplayer, and that the single player will require no online activation ( just an offline GFWL profile, which is no big deal ) and will simply use a disk check?

EDIT:

"And yes, you will have to go online at least once when you install the game, regardless of whether or not you ever play Multiplayer.
"

But you just said that you spoke to the GFWL people and that it would be as Oppopji said. ( see the bold text ), but if you need to activate online, then it is not as he said :S

No: When you install the game, you have a one-time online activation. That happens, regardless of what you do with the game afterwards. This is part of Games for Windows Live's process for installation.

If you then want to create an offline profile and play only Single Player, you can do that without problem, or online access.

[2K Elizabeth]

@2K Elizabeth

I just registered now to ask you this one question:

will there be any 'sort' of activation limits on the steam version?This is really bugging me and I hope its unlimited.

I'm checking on Steam, and I'll let you guys know by the end of the week what's the full deal with the digital version.

[dchalfont]

No: When you install the game, you have a one-time online activation. That happens, regardless of what you do with the game afterwards. This is part of Games for Windows Live's process for installation.

If you then want to create an offline profile and play only Single Player, you can do that without problem, or online access.

...and how is that better than DRM?, you realise that even with DRM that after installation/activation, that you don't have to go online again...yet you make it sounds like it's some kind of benefit with GFWL.

Not only is it the same with GFWL, but it's funneling people through their inferior distribution service. Which I imagine was the entire point of it.

[Crezth]

I'm checking on Steam, and I'll let you guys know by the end of the week what's the full deal with the digital version.

Thanks a bunch Liz, it means a lot. For the record, no SecuROM is a load off of my mind. Here's hoping GFWL is a painless and straightforward procedure.

[Oppopji]

...and how is that better than DRM?

It is DRM, just using Microsoft's software instead of Sony's.

[Ciaos]

I'm native to the Steam forums but just registered to ask a few questions.

I'm not quite following the activation system of GFWL. After installing, I have to create a profile to activate it on GFWL. Say if I uninstall and install again, would I be required to go online again to activate once more or can I just use the GFWL offline account I would have created before?

I know its early days, but would the DLC for BioShock 2 have SecuROM like Borderlands?

Thanks.

[2K Elizabeth]

I'm native to the Steam forums but just registered to ask a few questions.

I'm not quite following the activation system of GFWL. After installing, I have to create a profile to activate it on GFWL. Say if I uninstall and install again, would I be required to go online again to activate once more or can I just use the GFWL offline account I would have created before?

I know its early days, but would the DLC for BioShock 2 have SecuROM like Borderlands?

Thanks.

These specs are talking about the retail version of the game (not the hardware part, that stays the same across the board.) I am checking to get all the details of what is and is not in the Steam version, and that will take me a day or two to get hammered out and up here for posting.

And I don't have an answer about the DLC, either. Let's get this sorted first, but it's on my list!

[Ciaos]

Thanks for the quick reply and I eagerly await more info on the Steam version