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Thread: If you need to have your game refunded, here's how.

  1. #1

    If you need to have your game refunded, here's how.

    I was able to return my copy of Bioshock to Gamestop today. Sorry, I just couldnt deal with the crap associated with it right now. Maybe a few months down the road, I'll rebuy a copy.

    Anyways, if you are one of those who wishes to return it for actual money of how you paid for it for whatever reasons (securom/2k screwed you with the crappy no valid installation, unbearable crashes, .exe wouldn't start up, etc), you can tell them the following:

    By law and according to 2K EULA agreement you agree to the terms and conditions regarding the installation of the product.

    Under these set of rules, it is perfectly legal to uninstall the said product and reinstall it on another machine that is owned by the buyer of the product. Typically, one needs multiple products to install on multiple systems but one only needs one product and if he or she wished to uninstall the product, the consumer has every right to reinstall it onto another machine that is owned by him or her.....indefinetely.

    Securom, hinges on your rights as the buyer. Securom, in general, does not; however, the practice of allowing only two installs do hinge on the right. It is the same as buying a Ford Mustang. True, you cannot advertise your Ford Mustang on TV to make profit as you would violate their buyers contract. HOWEVER, if you fully bought that Ford Mustang, it is yours until you deem fit to get rid of it. Ford cannot limit your driving or years of ownership if fully paid by you.

    With your rights as a consumer both by US Consumer standards and by the very EULA contract on page 34 of Bioshock manual, 2K are in violation of their own contractual agreement with the buyer.

    I'm not talking about the game being crappy for you to give the game back. Im talking about the violations that has occured under securom. Now, if 2K were to altar Securom so that you still need the DVD to play but allows you to receive unlimited installs, then their contract to you will be fulfilled.

    But, right now, 2K is in violation of their User End Agreement.

    Trust me when I say this. I graduated from Regent Law School in Virginia Beach, Va in 2006 and I received my license in Oklahoma after passing my Bar Exam in Feb. of 2007.

    Explaining those violations will give you your refund back by the store you bought it from (with a receipt) or by 2K actual company.

    Good luck.

    **this post was locked by Elizabeth2K yesterday but I felt that every consumer had the right to know this; whether you love the company or was indifferent about it.

  2. #2
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    Finally someone with some intelligence. He had a problem and he fixed it himself. Unlike the rest of the kids here saying stupid ☺☺☺☺ and threatening class action lawsuits.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. P View Post
    Finally someone with some intelligence. He had a problem and he fixed it himself. Unlike the rest of the kids here saying stupid ☺☺☺☺ and threatening class action lawsuits.
    funnyer how they closed this same post last night becouse a fanboiy came in and started a flamewar

  4. #4
    is it legal for a free demo to infect your pc with securom rootkit? its free so it cant be to prevent piracy, unless they were using the demo to "prep" or PCs for possible piracy. BTW, this tread will get closed very soon, save a copy in case you need to refer to it later.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by shiznit View Post
    is it legal for a free demo to infect your pc with securom rootkit? its free so it cant be to prevent piracy, unless they were using the demo to "prep" or PCs for possible piracy. BTW, this tread will get closed very soon, save a copy in case you need to refer to it later.
    Actually, no. That is not legal also. You cannot sue for damages. However, you can sue to force 2K to remove that piece of software from the DVDs. It's parallel to Sony's Malware debacle three years ago in Texas when they placed malware into the owner of their CDs' harddrives.

    You were not told on the box or before installation that 2K was placing an indeletable folder into your registry. That is against the law (well, U.S. law). To be more precise, installation of a spyware, adware, or malware (Securom is Malware) into a consumer's PC without the beforementioned and/or approval of the malware by the owner of that PC is illegal in 39 states of the United States. Sorry, I dont know the laws governing UK.

    But in the US, if you need to return your product, just mention that. You should have no problem getting it refunded, as 2K knows the same laws I do. They have lawyers too; they were just hoping peope wouldn't see it or didn't care about it.

  6. #6
    I have copy/pasted what Kursa posted just in case this topic gets locked or, even worse, if Kursa gets banned.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Khajiit View Post
    I have copy/pasted what Kursa posted just in case this topic gets locked or, even worse, if Kursa gets banned.
    I wouldn't be shocked if anyone that mentions the rootkit situation does get banned.

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    Umm... Regents...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kursa View Post
    Trust me when I say this. I graduated from Regent Law School in Virginia Beach, Va in 2006 and I received my license in Oklahoma after passing my Bar Exam in Feb. of 2007.
    I'm sorry, but I have to call you out on this. Regent University (formerly Christian Broadcasting Network Universtiy) is the Pat Robertson school of fanaticism. Your easily impeachable educational credentials makes me less inclined to follow your advice.

    I'm surprised to even see you attempting to play this game since "M" rated games are expressly prohibited in your school's code of conduct.

    That said, keep up the good fight though! Glad you got your money back.

  9. #9
    Well,I was gona be getting this game tomorrow but I have changed my mind. Securom sucks, the FOV sucks and I no longer trust 2k anymore. I am sure they wont miss my £35 as much as I will miss their game but Bioshock just seems to messed up right now.

  10. Smiths what in the hell is your problem the guy has an LLD and a license to practice law which is two legal credentials more than you have got.

    Take your tiresome dime store political activism elsewhere it has nothing to do with gaming

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Smiths View Post
    I'm sorry, but I have to call you out on this. Regent University (formerly Christian Broadcasting Network Universtiy) is the Pat Robertson school of fanaticism. Your easily impeachable educational credentials makes me less inclined to follow your advice.

    I'm surprised to even see you attempting to play this game since "M" rated games are expressly prohibited in your school's code of conduct.

    That said, keep up the good fight though! Glad you got your money back.
    Feel free to research Regent Law school. Just because it was founded by Christian beliefs does not mean I received a bad education or that even a law school exists there. Harvard and Yale were both started as Seminaries. I rest my case (as it were).

    Also, nice attempt at trying to sway the thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kursa View Post
    Feel free to research Regent Law school. Just because it was founded by Christian beliefs does not mean I received a bad education or that even a law school exists there. Harvard and Yale were both started as Seminaries. I rest my case (as it were).

    Also, nice attempt at trying to sway the thread.
    You are right. I apologize. I was, perhaps, a bit harsh in hindsight.

    I wish you the best of luck in fighting 2K's stupid decisions to include this version of copy protection. I, too, will not be purchasing this game until it is either cracked or removed.

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    I'd personally disagree with Kursa on the "legal" points of this. I'm no lawyer but I studied Law at A level in the UK (high school exam equivalent).

    Software is usually licensed, not sold. That means that by buying games and software we are buying the right to use them, but not control over how they are delivered to us. The license agreement that appears before every software and game installation states this, and if you don't accept and don't install, then you can return the game for a refund. By installing, you're accepting the license agreement, whatever the terms may be.

    I don't know the specifics of the BioShock license agreement but I'm pretty sure it doesn't really grant unlimited PC installations, whether you own more than 2 PCs or not. Most software is licensed to only 1 PC but it seems 2k allow 2 installations at the same time, as do Microsoft for Word. This is not the norm - most companies explicitly state in their End User License Agreements that only one PC installation at any one time is allowed.

    Don't get me wrong, I hate DRM and SecuROM, but as a licensee of a game, once you install it then you have to abide by the publisher's terms. Expressing displeasure with the activation procedures as is occurring here is the best way forward, but arguing on legal terms is not going to get you anywhere. Arguing on a similar line to the Sony rootkit scandal (installation of undeletable files without permission) is more of a legally sound argument.

  14. #14
    you are right. It is licensed. However, you are granted the right to install the product as many times as you wish as long as you uninstall the product beforehand.

    Also, it is a violation to place malware onto a person's PC without their consent during the installation process.

    However, it is perfectly fine to disagree. That's why lawyers have to go through a channel of courts to figure out which one is right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mellifluous View Post
    I'd personally disagree with Kursa on the "legal" points of this. I'm no lawyer but I studied Law at A level in the UK (high school exam equivalent).

    Software is usually licensed, not sold. That means that by buying games and software we are buying the right to use them, but not control over how they are delivered to us. The license agreement that appears before every software and game installation states this, and if you don't accept and don't install, then you can return the game for a refund. By installing, you're accepting the license agreement, whatever the terms may be.
    If you sign a contract with me stating that you will murder someone, the contract isn't invalid because it's trying to require you to do something illegal.

    This is US law and it only covers part of this argument, but please read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_sale_doctrine

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kursa View Post
    Also, it is a violation to place malware onto a person's PC without their consent during the installation process.
    A violation of what?

    A friendly warning Kursa - your heart is in the right place, but you need to careful of posting something that can be construed as legal advice or opinion for which you could be liable.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Kursa View Post

    Also, it is a violation to place malware onto a person's PC without their consent during the installation process.
    Securirom is not malware. Learn your definitions.

    Also can someone post a link to the full bioshock PC EULA for the DVD version of the game? I am a 360 gamer, so i cant read it.

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    I agree about your second point. With your first, technically they're not breaking that right because you are able to reinstall - just under their terms. If you get locked out of the game, they can be contacted to get the game reactivated. if you attempt this and say, a week later they haven't responded with a satisfactory outcome that's enabled the reactivation, then I think you have grounds but I think people should be patient BUT express their dissatisfaction with the process.

    2k have to keep customers satisfied otherwise they stand to lose money and loyalty. From what I can see, they are trying to do that but all hell is loose at the moment.

    With my genuine copy of Windows XP Pro, I've exceeded my automatic activation limit which results in my having to spend 10 minutes to phone Microsoft every time I reinstall on my single PC. Legally, they're entitled to force me to do that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mellifluous View Post
    With my genuine copy of Windows XP Pro, I've exceeded my automatic activation limit which results in my having to spend 10 minutes to phone Microsoft every time I reinstall on my single PC. Legally, they're entitled to force me to do that.
    That resets every 6 months or whatever. I've never had to call them and I've installed with my legal, non-corporate, non-MSDN key at least half a dozen times.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by dandragonrage View Post
    That resets every 6 months or whatever. I've never had to call them and I've installed with my legal, non-corporate, non-MSDN key at least half a dozen times.
    No it doesnt.

    However, with Windows XP, a reinstallation on the same hardware configuration does not "remove" an activation count from your activation counter. (or thats what has been happening to me :P )

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    Well, I'm a video editor who needs my system to be optimal all the time, so I've probably done about 30 installs over the past 5 years.

    First sale doctrine regarding software, as that article says, is confusing, but it supports what I'm saying. Installing = accepting the End User License Agreement. The cases where customers were deemed to have equal rights to buying a book or CD, seem to be cases where the customer didn't install and accept the End User License Agreement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shodanjr_gr View Post
    Securirom is not malware. Learn your definitions.

    Also can someone post a link to the full bioshock PC EULA for the DVD version of the game? I am a 360 gamer, so i cant read it.


    True,its not,not by a long shot.

  23. Everyone is harping on the copy protection of the disk. What about a digital download? Do you have a problem with Steam?
    Instead of complaining about it and returning the game, why don't you get the Steam or Direct2Drive version?

    Also someone mentioned them installing SecureRom with the demo...
    1. Did you have proof they did this? (if so, I'd like to know)
    2. If not, why would you even think they'd put copy protection on a free demo?

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by IDoNotContainSpinach View Post
    Everyone is harping on the copy protection of the disk. What about a digital download? Do you have a problem with Steam?
    Instead of complaining about it and returning the game, why don't you get the Steam or Direct2Drive version?

    Also someone mentioned them installing SecureRom with the demo...
    1. Did you have proof they did this? (if so, I'd like to know)
    2. If not, why would you even think they'd put copy protection on a free demo?
    Steam contains the same secuROM code and activation limit.

  25. #25
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    I just got off the phone with 2k support. They refuse to acept any returns and stick by "the x1300 it better than the x850". The support person refused to allow me to escalate the issue and said I could not talk to a manager. I spoke to John and my incident number is 07082300694.

    Needless to say I will never purchase a 2k game again. I don't play games all that much and I'm sure I can live without whatever they publish.

    No one from 2k games has returned any of my emails either. What a racket. I'm tempted to look for a lawyer just out of principle even if it costs me money.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by IDoNotContainSpinach View Post
    Everyone is harping on the copy protection of the disk. What about a digital download? Do you have a problem with Steam?
    Instead of complaining about it and returning the game, why don't you get the Steam or Direct2Drive version?
    Well, first of all, both the Steam and the D2D versions have SecuROM, on top of the CP systems already present. So this doesn't actually gain them anything other than the ability to play without the physical disc in the drive.
    Furthermore, even if this weren't the case, returning the game is the still the logical first step - or were you suggesting that rather than trading in their hardcopy for a softcopy, they should instead buy the game twice?
    Quote Originally Posted by IDoNotContainSpinach View Post
    Also someone mentioned them installing SecureRom with the demo...
    1. Did you have proof they did this? (if so, I'd like to know)
    2. If not, why would you even think they'd put copy protection on a free demo?
    The proof is simple: install demo, consult registry for securom entries that weren't there before. Anyone who's installed the demo can verify this. And, like the full game, it doesn't get uninstalled when you remove the demo either.
    As for why they'd put it in the demo - well, this isn't the first time that sort of thing has happened. Google for "starforce demo", "securom demo" and "safedisc demo" and you'll get a double handful of game demos with copy protection systems in them. I'm not sure if it's because they're too lazy to make a seperate build for the demo, or whether they're worried that pirates will be able to use the demo to crack it faster (oh noes, it gets cracked at 3pm rather than 5pm, the world is over), or whether they're just massive ☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idylla View Post
    Steam contains the same secuROM code and activation limit.
    As of yesterday, according to Steam will allow you to install on as many machines as you like. You can only play one at a time. Check out response #117

    http://forums.steampowered.com/forum...light=bioshock

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by PaulS View Post
    I just got off the phone with 2k support. They refuse to acept any returns and stick by "the x1300 it better than the x850". The support person refused to allow me to escalate the issue and said I could not talk to a manager. I spoke to John and my incident number is 07082300694.

    Needless to say I will never purchase a 2k game again. I don't play games all that much and I'm sure I can live without whatever they publish.

    No one from 2k games has returned any of my emails either. What a racket. I'm tempted to look for a lawyer just out of principle even if it costs me money.
    You want to return the game because it wont run on a GFX card its not supposed to run on in the first place?

    The game needs a 9.0C compliant GFX card (revision C spec means that the card must support shader model 3.0). So WHY should they refund you?

    I feel for you, i got an X800 on an otherwise semi decent PC so the PC version was out of the question for me...but the fact that the game wont run is your fault and not 2Ks....

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smiths View Post
    I'm sorry, but I have to call you out on this. Regent University (formerly Christian Broadcasting Network Universtiy) is the Pat Robertson school of fanaticism. Your easily impeachable educational credentials makes me less inclined to follow your advice.

    I'm surprised to even see you attempting to play this game since "M" rated games are expressly prohibited in your school's code of conduct.

    That said, keep up the good fight though! Glad you got your money back.

    Wow you are very ignorant or uneducated or really freakin bored. You took the time to research this schools credentials and policies and to post it on a forum?

    Who cares what school it was? Or if M rated games are against company policy? You call that school a school of fanaticism yet you are the fanatic in your hate. Truely. What was stated in the OP's thread makes sense. I really can care less about the poster or where then info came from if it is a valid arguement.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by dr-whoopass View Post
    As of yesterday, according to Steam will allow you to install on as many machines as you like. You can only play one at a time. Check out response #117

    http://forums.steampowered.com/forum...light=bioshock
    If you actually read further in the thread, no, that's not the case - GregW answered misleadingly. The SecuROM code is still in the game, you are still limited to two simultaneous installs. All the Steam fix did was fix an issue where it wasn't properly activating - it still phones home, and still restricts you to 2 installs.

  31. #31
    BTW can someone PLEASE post a link to the game's EULA?

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulS View Post
    I just got off the phone with 2k support. They refuse to acept any returns and stick by "the x1300 it better than the x850". The support person refused to allow me to escalate the issue and said I could not talk to a manager. I spoke to John and my incident number is 07082300694.

    Needless to say I will never purchase a 2k game again. I don't play games all that much and I'm sure I can live without whatever they publish.

    No one from 2k games has returned any of my emails either. What a racket. I'm tempted to look for a lawyer just out of principle even if it costs me money.
    I would call back and get a different person; if you have the means record the conversation and let them know that you are recording the conversation.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glottis View Post
    True,its not,not by a long shot.
    "Malware is software designed to infiltrate or damage a computer system without the owner's informed consent" from wikipedia

    Were you asked OR even told that securom was being installed on your pc? Can you remove it from the registry?

  34. #34
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    So the EULA is has been violated by 2k... if one party breaches the contract, doesn't that nullify the contract releasing the other of its obligations? Ergo... we can do whatever we want with the game now?

  35. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Pas De Charge View Post
    "Malware is software designed to infiltrate or damage a computer system without the owner's informed consent" from wikipedia

    Were you asked OR even told that securom was being installed on your pc? Can you remove it from the registry?
    It does not aim to perform any act with malicious intend on your computer or your data.

    Also if someone actually posts the EULA im pretty sure there'll be at least SOME vague reference to the installation of SecuRom along with the game.

  36. #36
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    You morons really crack me up with this lawyer mumbojumbo bs!
    It took me 3 hours to get the game installed and working because
    I got a feature error not allowing me to install it. I did research
    on the internet and found it has to do with installing it under
    amin rather then all users. I didnt come crying in here about
    paying $1000's for a lawyer over a $40 game. Get a life bone heads.
    This game is fantastic and they deserve the right to protect it
    from pirates! Do you want some cheese with that wine?

  37. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by phantomdata View Post
    So the EULA is has been violated by 2k... if one party breaches the contract, doesn't that nullify the contract releasing the other of its obligations? Ergo... we can do whatever we want with the game now?
    No not necessarily. Two wrongs do not make a right. However, if 2K breaches their contract then you are entitled to a full refund.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by oggy View Post
    Do you want some cheese with that wine?
    That would be "whine."

  39. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by oggy View Post
    You morons really crack me up with this lawyer mumbojumbo bs!
    It took me 3 hours to get the game installed and working because
    I got a feature error not allowing me to install it. I did research
    on the internet and found it has to do with installing it under
    amin rather then all users. I didnt come crying in here about
    paying $1000's for a lawyer over a $40 game. Get a life bone heads.
    This game is fantastic and they deserve the right to protect it
    from pirates! Do you want some cheese with that wine?
    oggy, your funny.

    First of all, I think we all know about the admin option. It doesn't work for everyone.

    I dont have to pay thousands for a lawyer because I am one.

    And...since you are a guru on the internet then you would have realized the hackers already hacked the code last night. You may want to get your facts straight before coming in here looking all odd and what not

  40. #40
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    so we can return the game?

    how?
    Frys?

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